Massimo Mongiardo on Developing a Personal Style, Mural Designs for Clients, and Influences - Ep 10
ON THIS EPISODE
This week on First Coat we have Massimo Mongiardo. Massimo is based in Miami, Florida, but we met while he was working on a project here in NYC. He's done various murals across the country and launched an Etsy store selling his prints earlier this year. I spoke with Massimo about how to develop a personal style, his process for researching and developing mural designs for clients, how he makes money, and what's influencing him right now.
This interview was recorded June, 2020.
LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE HERE 👇🏾
LINKS
Guest | Massimo Mongiardo, Artist
Originally from Berkshire County MA, Currently based in Miami, Florida. His work focuses on figures in motion to tell narratives. It’s meant to reflect reality by showing play by play stories compressed into single compositions. His hope is that his viewers can relate to, identify, and interact with his work because they find themselves or something familiar within the piece.
Follow Massimo on Instagram (@massimomongiardo on Instagram, #massimomongiardo), LinkedIn, and check out his website and his Etsy store.
Your Host | Stephanie Eche, CEO & Founder of Distill Creative
Stephanie Eche is an artist and art consultant based in Brooklyn, NYC.
Follow Stephanie on Instagram (@distillcreative or @stephanie_eche), Twitter (@stephanie_eche), YouTube (Distill Creative), LinkedIn, and check out her art website.
Support First Coat by backing us on our Patreon.
Learn more about Distill Creative’s services for real estate developers.
Are you an artist? Sign up for our Distill Directory and you’ll be considered for art commissions and future projects.
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Stephanie Eche 00:02
Welcome to First Coat. Where we explore public realm art, how it's made and why it matters. I'm your host, Stephanie Eche, an artist and entrepreneur based in Brooklyn, New York. I run Distill Creative, where I curate and produce site-specific art projects for real estate developers. I focus on creating more equitable and inclusive projects and I want to get more exposure for the artists and developers doing this work. This week on First Coat, we have Massimo Mongiardo. Massimo is based in Miami, Florida, but we met while he was working on a project here in New York City. He's done various murals across the country and launched an Etsy store selling his prints earlier this year. I spoke with Massi about how to develop a personal style, his process for researching and developing mural designs for clients, how he makes money and what's influencing him right now. Here's our conversation.
Stephanie Eche 00:51
Thank you so much for taking time to be interviewed. I'm really excited to interview you today. Because I feel like you're, I love your work, but I think you're one of the first, maybe only, people who I've spoken to on the job who was just so open and has been willing to share so much information. So I really appreciate that, particularly because street art and murals are such a male dominated thing. It was just so refreshing to have someone send me some links, you know, and just open that door.
Massimo Mongiardo 01:20
Yeah, I started doing it like two and a half years ago, now, so it's sort of still new to me and I think it's exciting to meet people and share and stuff, still, so I'm not jaded, don't think I'm cool or something for being, you know, doing it.
Stephanie Eche 01:34
Right. Can you share just who you are and what you do?
Massimo Mongiardo 01:36
Yeah, my name is Massimo Mongiardo. I work as an illustrator and muralist on a lot of different projects. I started off doing branding and then it kind of shifted to illustration, which is sort of, it’s what I went to school for, and I'm way more into drawing and then probably like five years ago, one of the branding projects I got asked to put some of the illustrations up on the wall and that was my first painting experience and then nothing happened for probably three more years. And then I started to develop like a really distinct personal style and then it started to lead to, like I got one mural that asked for that and after that it was sort of like I had broken through one of the walls and I started to get a lot more work after that.
Stephanie Eche 02:16
I was listening to your interview on The Process podcast.
Massimo Mongiardo 02:18
Oh yeah, that was fun.
Stephanie Eche 02:20
I love how you talked about your development of style, because I totally agree. That's something that, rightfully so, artists obsess over, and particularly when you're doing public work. Do you want to share just some tips on style development?
Massimo Mongiardo 02:33
Yeah, I mean, that was something I was always worried about, as you know, as long as I've been drawing. I mean, when I was really young, I didn't really even know that it kind of went that way, but I started to notice it as a teenager and definitely in college, some of the students had really cool, really strong styles and it didn't really happen for me until like, a couple of years, after I moved to New York, after college. I started doing a lot of consistent work for a couple different people. And it was sort of, not because the projects were calling for distinct style, it was because I was making so much work and I started to develop a process more than anything. And then there was just a couple things that sort of led to it, like I started tracing sketches, instead of sketching again, and there were a couple times where I would hit points in the trace, where I would be like, oh, that kind of looks good like that, without the faces and, or with, you know, with only this much information and without, and so it was kind of just sort of pursuing, paying attention more, while I was working, to what I felt looked good and then it just sort of, it's always changing still, but it's like you, you're kind of like, you start to narrow in on this smaller frequency that gets more and more dialed and then you can pull old tricks in that you used to use and but you have this stronger process. And so it's like anything you draw or paint starts to sort of look like your own, because you're just, you're so much more familiar with making so much more work. That's, for me, how I think it happened just by producing a lot of stuff and getting a ton of practice in.
Stephanie Eche 04:17
Yeah, I think that's one thing I really appreciate about when we've talked and when I've heard you talk to other people about style development. It's that you can't really skip the hard part of just doing it.
Massimo Mongiardo 04:27
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 04:28
It’s doing it over and over and over again.
Massimo Mongiardo 04:30
I mean, I, there were, there were so many times where I would be like, okay, this is how I'm going to do it. I'd look at like, you know, a Paul Pope comic or something, and I'd be like, okay, quick gestural ink strokes, that's what I'm going to do from now on, or I'd look at like Ashley Wood and be like, I'm gonna be a painter and then, it wasn't really about that, it was more like just drawing a lot and making a lot of work. That's sort of how it happened.
Stephanie Eche 04:57
In that interview, too, I heard how you were one of those kids who just drew a lot when you were little?
Massimo Mongiardo 05:03
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 05:04
Do you remember the first thing you drew? Or what's your earliest memory of creating something?
Massimo Mongiardo 05:08
The first, the earliest thing I can remember is a drawing of my dad's cat from when I was really young, and he still has it and it was sort of, I think it was just big thing for mostly my parents, who were like, oh, my god, he drew the cat and I was a really, really small kid. And so that was sort of the first, first one and then you know, and really elementary school, really young kids stuff, there was some self portraits, too, where it was more like I was seeing my parents react to these things I was making and that's sort of what the memory is more than anything. And I think that's sort of why I was encouraged to keep pursuing that and my parents are both really into art. My dad makes furniture and we always had art books and stuff around. But it was those couple things, the cat and the first self portrait and that my parents were just so reactive, that I think in my young, young brain, I felt like this is what I do. You know, so that was sort of it. But that said, I've learned that talent is overrated, and practice is everything.
Stephanie Eche 06:14
Did you always want to do work in public space? Or how did that come about?
Massimo Mongiardo 06:19
No, no, it wasn't like a goal of mine from a long time ago, I've always just kind of been into drawing and rendering and, you know, cool illustrations, like comic books, and, you know, anime and video game art and stuff like that, since I was a kid. And so it was never specifically that, but then I did the one five or six years ago, where it was just the things I had illustrated for a food menu painted on the wall and the feeling of doing that was so much better than, you know, just drawing to me. It was like, oh, this is some next level, physical, you're, like drawing, for me is a lot of it is just feeling good, and this line feels good and that line feels good and it's like, I'm gonna keep chasing this rhythm. And so painting is just like a whole other thing when you're going large scale like that. And then through Instagram, I just started to discover artists who they weren't really graffiti artists, really, it was more like they were just making beautiful huge paintings. Like Axel Void and I think he's called I release and there's a bunch of street artists who paint almost classical stuff with just sort of a hint of this street art look. So you can really bend it in a lot of ways and giant walls can take anything that a canvas can take to so that was sort of, I think, through Instagram is where I was like, that's kind of what I want to do. I kind of want to try that, because I think I could do it, you know?
Stephanie Eche 07:50
Have you enjoyed doing outdoor murals?
Massimo Mongiardo 07:53
Oh, yeah. It's, I mean, it's hard. It's always like this, it's hard in a lot of different ways than regular drawing is because it takes so much physical work and trying to wrap your head around how you're going to scale it up. I've scaled things up so many different ways, and even when I use the same technique on a different wall, it's like a different experience every time because sometimes it's really hot, sometimes it's really windy, sometimes it rains, which sucks, but yeah, I mean, it's still, it's like this whole different experience where at the end of it, like you, some days you're kind of chasing the weather, making sure that you get it done on time, but that means that you're climbing up and down a ladder all day and by the end of it, you're actually sore. So I mean, I like the really physical part about it too, but outdoor stuff, yeah, is the hardest, I think.
Stephanie Eche 08:45
Being in elements.
Massimo Mongiardo 08:46
Yeah, exactly. The first one I did was, the first outdoor one I did, it was so windy. And I was using pounce transfer and it was just, the paper was tearing off the wall and stuff and it's just, was so intimidating, but it worked.
Stephanie Eche 09:03
Can you talk a little bit about the public interaction with your work and
Massimo Mongiardo 09:07
oh, yeah!
Stephanie Eche 09:07
How that influences new work?
Massimo Mongiardo 09:09
A lot of times, I think when when I got commissioned people were sort of looking to, the first couple, especially as people were looking for that sort of where they're like, oh, now I realize this building is a local butcher shop or something like that, you know, or it's like this kind of makes sense and so, but at the same time, I'd like people to first of all think it looks cool, but then also kind of understand what's going on and read the story, and it's sort of like they're like, oh, yeah, that's sort of, that is how that's done. The piece I did for Essex Street Market, which never turned out to be a mural, but it just shows how food gets from the farm to the market, and some of it goes to warehouse literally first before it goes anywhere. So it's like oh yeah, I never thought about it like that. And I mean there's been a couple pieces by other artists that strongly influenced that thinking, and I've just stuck with it for so long.
Stephanie Eche 10:03
Like the storytelling aspect?
Massimo Mongiardo 10:04
Yeah. I don't know if you've ever been to well, you probably have, the Natural History Museum in New York has these murals when you walk in, and they're just, it's just stacked information. And there's a couple American artists, I'm trying to think of the guy's name right now that I always reference. There's another Italian comic book artist who did this history of the world peace, where it's stacked from the very beginning up until now, and it's super violent and gnarly, but just the way that he told that story was a huge click for me where I was like, I can sort of draw figures in that way, I can use this as a way to tell my own stories that I know about. And so I think it's, I think being able to, it's almost like reading in a weird way. It's spelled out for you. Because I don't want people to have to think too hard when they look at my work, but it's the sort of thing where you look at it all at once, and then you zero in on the details and then maybe you catch some metaphors later.
Stephanie Eche 11:00
How much do you, knowing that you do work that way, what kind of research do you do when you're working on a new piece?
Massimo Mongiardo 11:07
Well, it depends on what it is. Usually, sometimes there's no points of reference, at all, but usually it helps if there's like one for the, like the Foster Sundry mural, which was my first outdoor one, they just wanted something that said, you know, we're a butcher shop and we sell cheese and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, instead of pointing it at, just at the food, it was like, well, the process, the people, the work, all that is a cooler angle. And so I start checking how food’s made, I start looking up their farmers, I start finding specific history to those places and seeing if there's cool imagery that I can rip that has meaning. I try not to put too much filler stuff in my work, it's usually always referencing something. Yeah, it depends what it is. There was this Tiki Bar/sushi restaurant in Boston that I did a mural for and it was sort of a similar thing, where they didn't know what they wanted, but they knew that they didn't want any, iconic imagery, like Japanese stuff, or Tiki stuff or anything like that, because they're not Japanese and they're not part of Tiki culture, but this is just the food that they're making and they don't want people to get the wrong idea. So I focused on the ingredients, and the way those things are made. So, like fishing for sushi and sugar cane for rum. Those things for me have really cool images. Like, you know, guys with machetes, chopping down sugar cane that sort of, it's like, how can I hit this from an angle where I'm gonna have, be able to excel at what I'm painting and drawing and it's not, it's not a cop out? You know what I mean? It really does have to do with what the concept is.
Stephanie Eche 12:02
Right, and pushing you to just draw new things.
Massimo Mongiardo 12:55
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, sugar cane, that was new. Yeah, boats, skyline, all those things. I mean, it's, I try to get new stuff from every project and usually you do. That's the cool thing.
Stephanie Eche 13:12
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Stephanie Eche 13:25
Do you have any tips for an artist who does, I guess, maybe more works on canvas or works on paper who's looking to do outdoor murals?
Massimo Mongiardo 13:33
Yeah, if you want to do one, try and find someone who will let you do one or, you know, enter a contest. The way I got my first one, I entered a contest and I took work that I already had and mocked it up on their wall and just sort of was like this, something like this, you know, and please choose me. And it was really intimidating, but I think I've mentioned this to you before that, it's sort of, you sort of end up doing exactly what you do on paper, or canvas anyway, even if it's gigantic. Obviously, you got to get on a ladder or lift or whatever, but you sort of navigate the piece in the same way where it's like, I put the sketch down and then I put the shading down and then I do the line work to clean it up and then I'm done. It's sort of, it's surprising how much it reflects how you work small scale, that's for me, and the best way to figure it out is to try it, there's no, there's no other way.
Stephanie Eche 14:32
What kind of paint do you like to use most on a wall?
Massimo Mongiardo 14:35
Honestly, I like using house paint.
Stephanie Eche 14:37
As opposed to acrylic or latex?
Massimo Mongiardo 14:40
Yeah, it's kind of watery, so you can get a lot of light coverage with it, but it doesn't drip off the brush constantly, unless it's hot out. I found that I've used other paints that are so much more difficult, which are supposed to be so much better, but for me, for what I do, for the amount of color I use, those kinds of things, it's the smoothest flattest, not the cheapest, but it's still it's really easy to get house paint in a lot of different colors, too. So, and my work is very, at least so far, the mural work is very, you know, maybe six colors that are really identifiable. And so I can just buy those things and add white if I want to make it lighter like that. So it's not super complex, but yeah, house paint.
Stephanie Eche 15:26
How have you been doing this year with, I mean, I know a lot of artists, their projects have just been put in hold indefinitely. But I’ve also noticed that your Etsy page has blown up. Can you talk a little bit about transitioning and doing commissions?
Massimo Mongiardo 15:39
I was really surprised actually because I just checked on it right before. I was like, wow, I have all these followers and ratings and stuff. Yeah, actually, in the beginning it was a little scary. I had landed, I moved to Miami but then I landed a job in New York in January that was like dream job and I moved up there in January but then Coronavirus hit and I left back to Miami because I didn't have a place.
Stephanie Eche 15:44
Oh my gosh. What was the job?
Massimo Mongiardo 16:05
I'm working for an interior design company, designing wall graphics, murals, but they're just installed. I don't have to paint but I design them and then get the manufacturer to put them in.
Stephanie Eche 16:18
Are they branded pieces or is it your art?
Massimo Mongiardo 16:20
Yeah, it's like I have to appease the client, but it's still, as far as office job, it's the coolest one I've ever had.
Stephanie Eche 16:28
Is this a company you can share? I'm so curious.
Massimo Mongiardo 16:31
It's, the company I work for is Ted Moudis Associates, it’s an interior design company. It's, I don't know, it's not like I'm working for, what's it called? Seen or something like a mural company like that. It's more like they started a branding department in their interior design company as a different way to get projects. Wall graphics, for offices, I guess are sort of exploding right now.
Stephanie Eche 16:59
Yeah.
Massimo Mongiardo 16:58
Like tech offices want really cool, beautified spaces and so, so I was let go and then brought back on. So, I've been busy, honestly, I have a lot of, when Coronavirus started, I sold the prints on Etsy and donated a lot of the money that I was making off that. Wasn't a ton, but it was enough for me to be okay and plenty to give away. A lot of people that I've been, I've ironically been doing a lot of logos recently, which was something that I tried to get away from when I started doing murals, but the people who are coming to me are sort of just looking for whatever I want to do for them. It's not this difficult back and forth kind of thing. But a lot of smaller businesses, like I'm doing something for a butcher shop in Jersey City right now and they just said that it's been the craziest season they've ever had and they’re only open three or four days a week and they have never been busier because people don't really want to go to the supermarket and they want to buy local stuff. And everyone's talking about a meat shortage but they are sourcing from local farmers and so it's not a problem and, yeah. Same thing, another guy in Chicago, a baker, he said he had the craziest season ever and they're trying to open a commissary and he needs a logo for that. So I've been busy with a lot of projects for small operations that have been doing really well, ironically, during all this.
Stephanie Eche 17:15
That's really interesting.
Massimo Mongiardo 18:20
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 18:21
That makes a lot of sense, though. So, my fiance is actually a trademark lawyer and his business has been fine. It's kind of, it's really weird.
Massimo Mongiardo 18:30
Right, like people are opening new stuff.
Stephanie Eche 18:32
Yeah, people have ideas and they have money, somehow, to start new businesses and they need a trademark.
Massimo Mongiardo 18:40
Yeah, it's crazy. I would have never expected it. It was pretty scary in the beginning. Like I said, I got let go from the New York thing but it was, I was sort of like, well, I have painting, I have a couple painting commissions and we'll see what happens and now I'm just busy again. Like real busy. I don't know, I feel lucky, obviously.
Stephanie Eche 19:02
Right. Can you talk a little bit about the commissions and how that process has been working for you?
Massimo Mongiardo 19:07
Yeah, it's taken a really long time to get where I'm at now with just talking to people about money and how to manage clients and stuff and it can be really difficult because I've caught myself in the past sort of getting greedy when I don't have a lot of money and asking for a lot for people who I should know don't really have it and then the other way around where I don't ask enough. And so I've tried to kind of just make more flat rates that aren't ridiculous, but aren't too cheap. I should probably still raise some of them sometimes, but it's worked pretty well, if I say ‘well this costs this much, take it or leave it’. So for like, facade illustrations, I have a flat rate, for oil paintings, I have a flat rate, logos too, now. Just sort of like everybody gets the same price unless they're like, I just can't do that, and then I'm like, well, maybe I can do this instead for that amount, so, but I try not to get greedy, because it usually ends up with me ending up with no work. Because people are just kind of go cold or they think it's ridiculous or, the thing is, though, I mean, I have made a point that everybody has to pay, that's something different. I used to do a lot of free work. And I just, I don't know if this is the way I'm going to make money, even if I'm busy, it doesn't, I don't know when I'm gonna be not busy again, it might be next week. So I have to ask everybody to pay me, basically. So yeah, any advice I would give, it's just make sure you get paid. Unless it's for some crazy celebrity or something. Even then, I was talking to a friend of mine who I did commission for work for him like five or six years ago. And he paid me, he does analog synthesizers, and I did an illustration on the front of one of the faceplates. And on, actually on the back of some of the PCP boards, where it's sort of like an Easter egg, but like six years later, he, some guy in Hong Kong noticed one of them and reached out to me for a logo, which is something I'm working on now. And I was talking to my friend about it and he was like, see, this is the problem with doing work for exposure, because maybe one person hits you up for like a $400 project five years from now. That's been my experience, for the most part. My followers at this point go up, no matter what I do. And they're going up slowly, and they don't go up much faster. Like maybe I'll get 30 or 100 from a big post, but it doesn't mean I'm getting tons of work. It's never really added up that way.
Stephanie Eche 21:59
Right, it doesn't correlate.
Massimo Mongiardo 22:01
Yeah, and what I’ve realized...
Stephanie Eche 22:03
You’re talking about Instagram followers, right?
Massimo Mongiardo 22:05
Yeah, yeah, what I've realized is the work just has to be good enough. You have to make sure that you're putting out good work that you think is good, and that people can't deny is good. So, I focus more on making my work better, and charging for everything. Because, otherwise it just doesn't, you're going to get followers if your work’s good and not everybody's gonna buy stuff. No, that's not how it works. So yeah, that's, that's been my experience.
Stephanie Eche 22:33
Those are really good tips, I think. Just focus on the work and...
Massimo Mongiardo 22:37
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 22:37
Charge for your work. I mean, it seems pretty obvious, but I do think a lot of artists...
Massimo Mongiardo 22:42
I did a ton of free work when I was, you know, from like, 20 to, 20 to 30 years old. I did a ton, obviously, all the first projects I did in the beginning were free, when I was just out of college, I needed a portfolio. And as soon as you get one published piece, it's like, ‘oh, yeah, I did something for Hopps Skateboards. They did something, they trusted me to do that, you guys can, too’, you know? So, in the beginning, yeah, maybe, but eventually, you're going to start getting good enough where you deserve to get paid.
Stephanie Eche 23:18
Yeah, don't do free work. No one should do free work.
Massimo Mongiardo 23:21
Yeah, exactly.
Stephanie Eche 23:22
That’s like the number one thing I hear when I ask people.
Massimo Mongiardo 23:25
Exactly. I mean, it's only okay, when you need an example. You don't, you don't have any murals in your portfolio and you need to do one, get someone to let you do one. And even then if they're, if they have a budget, take it, you know, but other than that, exposure and all that I've never had any crazy, like I'm blowing up because of this, you know?
Stephanie Eche 23:49
Can you share a little bit about how you might give a quote for a public project? And if that's changed over time, also.
Massimo Mongiardo 23:55
Yeah. In the beginning, I had no idea what to do, obviously. I would just kind of throw numbers out there and be like, oh, well, one this big costs this much and it’s a big one and 1500 bucks, I don't know. And then a couple people I worked for told me I wasn't charging enough, even though they would still just pay me whatever I threw out there. And so I started charging, like 50 bucks an hour and keeping track of how long it took to do all this stuff. And then I started adding up the materials and the travel and stuff like that and was sort of like, ah, this is a ton of work. Because I don't know, I mean, when you spend a week and a half on something, like there was just mural at the Essex Crossing, the Grand Street Settlement Community Center. It's like, I got paid fairly for that project, but it took me seven 12 hour days to finish it. And at the end, the hourly wasn't that good, but it doesn't matter, I got a good, and you have to count all the hours that goes into the sketching, too and the planning and all that so, from concept phase to finished painting, I usually quote out by the hour and make it like a flat rate and then split up the payments. So one to start, one when the sketch is finalized, and one when I'm done painting.
Stephanie Eche 25:13
That makes sense.
Massimo Mongiardo 25:14
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 25:14
I know other artists charge by square foot, but they basically have figured out that number based on what, how much time it typically takes to do all of those things.
Massimo Mongiardo 25:24
Yeah, I think it's a similar sort of thinking. The reason I don't do that is some murals are way bigger that take me much less time.
Stephanie Eche 25:32
Got it, okay.
Massimo Mongiardo 25:34
So, it kind of all depends on the design. Like I did something for Amazon, recently, that was, there's this Amazon mural and this dig in mural that were very similar complexity, kind of limited color, and the walls are much bigger than something I did for this, the tiki bar I was talking about in Boston, but that had much more complex color, so it was like two or three days more work.
Stephanie Eche 25:58
Yeah. What's the best experience you've had doing a mural and what's the worst experience you've had?
Massimo Mongiardo 26:03
Oh, man. Let me think, the best one was, I think, last summer, or last winter, feels like summer because I was down here. But last winter, during Art Basel, I did this long, sequence piece of like someone running and jumping, and taking all their clothes off, losing all their clothes, as they were running and jumping. That was in a school on the side of a gym. As it progressed, the kids were just like, freak out. And, and then there were a lot of mural artists there, too. So they would come through, and it's really encouraging to talk to them and see, see their work just being, just unfolding too. And so you get to, you get to see a lot of different people's processes and meet the community really quickly and it's just kind of a crazy vibe, because everyone was trying to finish before Sunday, before school starts again and, but the energy there with all the artists there and all the kids there was like, it was just like rolling every day. I don't know, it was really fun. Oh, so that's a good one. A bad one, none of them have been terrible. I guess, there was one recently where I had to use a lift on an incline and so the lift, there was a ramp that goes up to the door, basically. So I'd have to drive the lift up and they don't go up if they're at a, on an angle.
Stephanie Eche 27:25
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 27:26
And I had, so I had to take two by fours and like shim the back wheels, so it would be flat when I drove it up the ramp and then I would climb up and raise it like 20 feet and it's like rocking.
Stephanie Eche 27:36
Oh my gosh.
Massimo Mongiardo 27:37
That's kind of what they do. And it was sort of, kind of my first real experience was one of them like that and it was just, the mural had to be done because the rain, rain was coming the next day and I couldn't really reach all the way because there was an awning. So, I would raise the lift up, and then it had this extension that went out, so I would push the extension out as far as it would go. And then, so I'm walking out on this extension that's not, it's not above the lift, it's just floating and rocking and, and it's almost raining and it's windy. So, that was just kind of scary. But I'm sure compared to other artists experience, it's not even that bad. But for me, it was one of my first times up on one of those things and it just felt like a really janky, makeshift way to get it done, but I got it done. It came out pretty well. It was just sort of intimidating and it didn't feel right. You know?
Stephanie Eche 28:31
Yeah.
Massimo Mongiardo 28:31
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 28:32
There's a lot with lifts that is, it's really scary and you have to be careful and do it correctly. But to your point, sometimes there are these situations where you're just doing whatever you can to get it done.
Massimo Mongiardo 28:43
I just, the guy, you know, I had been paid and I had to get paid for the rest and the weather was turning bad and I didn't want to keep working on it for more days. I didn't want to fix mistakes, so I just kept moving. And it was really, I was just nervous the whole time. You know, which is unpleasant, but it worked out fine. It came together.
Stephanie Eche 29:08
Yeah, I'm glad you got down in one piece.
Massimo Mongiardo 29:11
It was terrible.
Stephanie Eche 29:15
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Stephanie Eche 29:29
Do you have any tips for clients who want to hire mural artists for projects and some things they could think through? Like make sure there's not an incline. I mean, I honestly commissioned someone for a client piece and I wasn't there and I found out, basically during install, that they couldn't, same situation with the lift but there was no way to make it work.
Massimo Mongiardo 29:47
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 29:48
Somehow the artist just made it work without the lift, basically. Or I mean, I don't really want to know what she did to make it work. But I felt so bad not knowing that, right?
Massimo Mongiardo 29:58
Yeah, I would think as a client, looking for an artist and thinking about a space that you want painted, just think about, is this the best place for a mural, because I mean, what I painted was kind of cool in the end, but it was really difficult to make it work. It was like an awning that framed up the entrance to Brooklyn Commons down on Flatbush. And it was just really hard to get information on there and figure out a good composition and then the lift thing. There was supposed to be no awning, but something didn't happen in time. So yeah, those kinds of technical things where it's like, before you hire someone, choose a good spot, make sure it's very visible and accessible by the artist and if you figure it's going to need a lift, try and have that all sorted out for them. Because, it's not really expensive, but to have the artist handle that adds stress, because I ended up having to handle it last minute, which was difficult and we were trying to get a you know, certificate of insurance from the landlord and those kinds of things are really, really annoying to deal with. And so it's whatever you can do to, if you want the mural and you want it to happen, do whatever you can to let the artist come in and paint and do what they're good at. Because a lot of times, I didn't have experience getting a COI, I didn't, I just felt sort of like I was failing half the time, you know, so if you have those things in place where you can make that call and make that move, it makes, it just makes it easier for everybody, because it's not, if you have a secretary who can call the rental company, do that. It's so much easier than the artist doing it, you know. Those types of things where it's just like, does it make sense to have a mural here or how can I make sure he’s set up because the jobs have been really smooth, like the Tiki Bar I keep talking about in Boston, I got there and the construction workers were not touching the wall, they just primed it and they were just moving around it and there, there was a mask on the floor, so I didn't get any paint on the floor, so those guys didn't have to clean it up and it's just like, the painters who paint the walls are probably better at masking than I am. You know what I mean? So those kinds of things, where it's like, let each person do what they're good at. That's the best advice I can give. Because otherwise, it's just so much harder for everybody and I'm asking a million questions like, where do I find a ladder and the blah, blah, blah, slows everything down.
Stephanie Eche 32:31
Right. And especially if there already are those resources, like if there's already someone setting up something for a different, similar situation.
Massimo Mongiardo 32:39
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 32:40
I find this happening a lot with clients were they could really just use the same resources for different things, but instead, it's like 12 different people asking the same questions.
Massimo Mongiardo 32:50
Yeah, exactly. It's better to have all that stuff done up front, you know? There's been times where it's like, then, you know, I get super frustrated and then all the client, all of a sudden the client checks in on me to see if I need anything and I'm already heated and stressed. And so, but then I'm like, oh, he's cool, alright, cool. You know, it's just, it's better to like, I mean, I usually act really needy in the beginning and be like, is there gonna be a ladder there? Are you sure I can get there? Because it's just been a couple times where I'm like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this.
Stephanie Eche 33:26
Yeah and then there's, like in situations that I've been working on, there's also artists who want to do everything themselves and don't want, they have their own method of how they get their ladder or how they whatever, so it's like, yeah.
Massimo Mongiardo 33:38
Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, some people are just set up, like people who have been doing it for a while probably have certificates of insurance and they have their own business that's specifically only for murals that charges all that shit, you know, so it's not one size fits all, but my best experiences is when I just get in there and paint and leave. That's the best for me.
Stephanie Eche 34:07
Yeah, I think clients just being aware of asking the questions up front before they expect to have something done.
Massimo Mongiardo 34:14
Yeah. ‘Are you gonna need a lift? Are you gonna need a ladder?’ Because I don't even have a ladder. I want to get one, but I don't have one and I don't have any mural projects in the pipeline. So probably not going to buy one right now, you know?
Stephanie Eche 34:27
Well, and if you’re going out of town, you're not going to bring your own.
Massimo Mongiardo 34:30
Yeah. Like I had to fly out to Seattle to do the one for Amazon, obviously, I can't bring certain stuff. But we had that conversation, it's another good example where I was pretty well set up. I was like, I have a projector, I don't need one. I'm sure you guys have a bunch, you know, but I don't need one.
Stephanie Eche 34:51
You've done a bunch of different things as far as your career.
Massimo Mongiardo 34:55
Yeah.
Stephanie Eche 34:56
Is there anything that you wish you had done or you wish you hadn't done looking back now.
Massimo Mongiardo 35:01
Yeah, I mean, I sort of, I wish I had started taking this all more seriously earlier. I mean, things sort of happen, life has a way of figuring itself out in this weird way, for better or worse, it just always kind of ends up you never know what's gonna happen, but in college, I leaned too much on skills I had built when I was a teenager, and was like, you know, I was like, one of the better kids in high school, one of the better kids when I got to college. And then by the time I left college, I was like, not the best. So,
Stephanie Eche 35:39
What do you mean, specifically? Like in your drawing skills, or in your style?
Massimo Mongiardo 35:43
Yeah, like drawing skills, thinking about what I want to do with it, how to finish project, where am I taking this. I was very all over the place. And it started to kind of crystallize a little bit when I left, when I got out of school more, because I was just like, oh, I can just draw whatever now again, and I started, I reached out to skateboard companies and did some skateboard graphics for free. And that was really exciting and things like that, but it would be like, you know, I would do one project a month, maybe, maybe like two a year, sometimes it was really slow. And I would sometimes draw, I would go sit outside and draw, I would go to the human figure, but it wouldn't be that often. And then, when I moved to New York, I had to start working in restaurants because I was just desperate for money. And I started going to figure drawing classes a lot more again, and started shopping around for internships and I just was like, I gotta throw myself at this again. And it's like three years had gone by or something, and I sort of wasn't paying attention. And then finally, at a certain point, after a couple of graphic design jobs, I got an art studio when I was like, maybe 25, and that was when everything, it was just like, oh, just, I'll just go to the studio before going to Momofuku for work, or craft, I think it was actually a craft at that time. And so I would, I started developing a habit of going, and I wish I had just done that for all the time. Because it was like I had these two periods when I was a young teenager, high school kid where drawing was what I did in my spare time. And then I started, you know, got in, got really into skateboarding and partying and whatever and it wasn't as focused. And then it kind of came back later again, when I was like, 25, 24/25. And I wish I had stayed kind of focused, because you can make a lot of progress in a year, you know. And it just, I said it before, it's like, you don't get anywhere without producing work. So the question was, what do I regret? And what was the other half of it?
Stephanie Eche 37:56
What do you wish you had done?
Massimo Mongiardo 37:58
Yeah, I just wish I had taken it more seriously earlier. But now, now's the time where I'm able to remind myself that I said that a while ago. And so, if I want to take a painting class, and I feel lazy about it, I'm sort of like, my attitudes a little different now, where I'm like, no, do it now.
Stephanie Eche 38:16
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 38:16
You know, because when you're 40, you're gonna be like, I should have learned how to paint portraits when I was 33, you know?
Stephanie Eche 38:25
Why do you think that happens, because the same exact thing happened to me where it's like, I was doing stuff, I mean, even in my early 20s, even after college, I mean, college is kind of a weird thing for me, but it's like, I was starting to do really cool things and then I just got like, sucked into survival mode. I don't even know what it is, because it's not like I had a family.
Massimo Mongiardo 38:43
Yeah, I don't know, I think it had to do with just wanting to hang out with my friends and make new friends in New York and I didn't really know what to do after college, I didn't feel like I had made any kind of decision. I think maybe I should have taken a year to think about like, what do I want to go to college for, maybe I would have gone for painting, instead of illustration. And I just didn't, it was just like I was on the path that everyone else was on, like finish high school, you go to college, you graduate college, you go to work, I don't know. And so it was sort of like, I didn't think a lot, as much as I do now, as I did back then. I'm, I usually try and I've realized that doing difficult things kind of helps you in the end, like taking a hard painting class or working out or practicing all the time. Those things take a long time, but they end up being more satisfying.
Stephanie Eche 39:39
Yeah and I think from some of the things you've said to just, taking the class or learning the skill, or I feel like at least when I was younger, I just kind of assumed these people can do these things and these people can't, when really it’s that these people actually learned and practice and these people didn’t.
Massimo Mongiardo 39:54
Yeah, same. I feel like it was another thing too, where a lot of people were like oh, you're just super talented, as a kid, and you know, I can't draw a stick figure, it's like these, you start to realize it's, there are people in my, in college who started off really weak and got really good, you know, and I think, I don't think I even still realized it back then, until I got the studio where it was like I had somewhere to go produce work. And the more work I produced, the more strong my work got and the closer and closer I got to this style that kind of came out of nowhere.
Stephanie Eche 40:31
So, what's your studio practice like now? How do you balance the making money type art and the new type of things and the practice? Are you doing it all in the same space?
Massimo Mongiardo 40:43
Yeah, it's all in the same space. I wish I had more time to make paintings and just you know, drawings and stuff. Right now, I'm honestly so busy with commission stuff. I come here like every day, and usually I try to block out the quick cool like logos stuff in the morning and then work all afternoon on the bigger freelance project that I'm working on. And so, it's definitely a balancing act even within all the commission work, right now, because it's a lot of different stuff. Then I have these painting commissions, too, that I want to do them and they're sitting here and they're really challenging and they take a really long time and I just, every, it's like once every month, I sit down and paint for a few hours, right now. And I think next month will be a little different. I won't be so under the gun under a large freelance project and then I'll probably do like two or three days a week painting and stuff like that and then a couple more days a week making money. But right now my day is sort of split between doing small projects and big projects that are all commission. I don't really have a lot of time for just whatever I want to do. But some of these projects have been really cool, to be honest and I've been able to have almost 100% control. So I still can't complain. I'm getting a ton of practice and doing a ton of drawing right now. So it's all for the better.
Stephanie Eche 42:07
Do you have any favorite tools?
Massimo Mongiardo 42:09
Yeah, I really like oil painting, which I still, I don't do it enough and it's something that I always, every time I make a painting, I'm like, I've got to do this once a week or once a day, and I just don't because it's such a, it's so much setup, and it's so much focus and it's like, it's so hard compared to whatever else I do. But painting for me, I feel like I have less of a an ego about the process or something where I feel sort of, I'm still learning how to control it, so I don't get to like cocky and I try to do it right and follow my own process and whatever I've learned from the couple professors I've had, and it's just a lot slower. And so there's something super Zen about painting and it's super focused, and I don't make the same kind of egotistical decisions in the process where it's like, I'm confident enough to just breeze through drawing, but painting is like, it's really easy to make it look bad. So it's really hard to make it look good. So I think I learn the most when I'm painting and it's also just really satisfying to paint. The whole tactile experience is really nice. The other end of that, my iPad has become, it's attached to my hand at this point. I have, I just, I'm constantly using it now. Which is funny because my fiancé got it for me a couple years ago, and I barely touched it in the beginning. And now it's just like, I don't have enough space on it because there's too many files and I'm just making four or five drawings on it a day. And it's allowed me to replicate my process from regular drawings, like even colored pencil, ink drawings and stuff. I can do all the sketching in there and I use a lot less paper and it's so much easier to get sketches to clients without scanning them or taking a photo and texting and all that.
Stephanie Eche 43:57
Right, downloading, uploading.
Massimo Mongiardo 43:55
Yeah, it's just, it's directly onto the computer. So yeah, I just got a Waycom, too but I'm still warming up to it and my computer is getting old so it doesn't do well with it which is sort of a bummer so I got the Waycom but now I need to buy a new computer.
Stephanie Eche 44:17
What do you feel like you need, can't you connect the iPad now with, like I have an, I've been using the Apple Pencil and Procreate, but I think I can also, I haven't actually tried it yet because I don't really use Photoshop a ton, I use it more for branding stuff not for art, but I think you can use it connected, there's some app.
Massimo Mongiardo 44:37
Yeah, there are apps I looked into them and a lot of people talk about how they experienced lag, so that was why I decided to get a Waycom, but then I'm experiencing lag anyway because my computer's too slow to run the Waycom. So in the end, I don't really know, it's sort of annoying, technical hurdle to get over, seems stupid. But it is what it is, my computer is like six years old now. But yeah, the reason I got it is because there's just certain things like in Illustrator and Photoshop where it's like, instead of doing it here and then doing it there or doing it on a mouse, I just want to be able to be right in Illustrator.
Stephanie Eche 45:15
Right. Yeah, it's something that has really bothered me as well. It's like, it's just a weird, it just doesn't make any sense that you can't do it. It just, it makes zero sense. And then when I try to try to explain it to people, they don't really understand, but it's, there's just certain things that I want to be able to just move over and you can't, and then, if you do it wrong in one or you didn't put the layers down correctly.
Massimo Mongiardo 45:38
Yeah and I wish, I just had a lot of moments where I was like, oh, I got to make this part on the iPad and then do this part on Illustrator and I just thought it would be a good thing, and when I upgrade my computer, I think it will be but I, it's mostly for Illustrator, the Photoshop thing, I think Procreate is more fun, honestly. And so oil painting and iPad, my favorite things right now.
Stephanie Eche 46:02
It’s funny because those are like totally opposite. But I also have been oil painting for the past year or so, maybe and it's like, it's so cathartic. I don't know, I just I love it so much. And I actually never really did acrylic. I don't really come from a painting, I was a printmaker in the beginning, so and then textile, so I'm, like, totally different mediums. But I'm trying to learn acrylic now just for the sake of like, right, but it's so different than oil and things I can do in oil and that I understood make sense.
Massimo Mongiardo 46:35
Yeah, I took, yeah, I took like a painting for illustrators class in college with acrylics. And then I took like a fine art class in college after that, and I was just like, I like oils better. I know, it's so much more expensive and longer process, but I don't know, acrylic stuff for me. I've been messing around with wash a little bit lately, too. But it's, I don't know if it's just because I'm not as familiar with it, but I'm more into the oil painting right now than anything.
Stephanie Eche 47:04
How do you think that'll come out in your public work?
Massimo Mongiardo 47:07
Oh, well, that's actually a good question. Which I've been, I took an oil painting class at SVA like two summers ago, and it completely changed my understanding of color, even when I'm just doing simple stuff. So, it was like, I got this whole, I got back in the groove of making an oil painting and I had a process again, and I was like, oh, yeah, right, the darks and the, if you put a little hot green inside of this kind of like mud green, the whole thing turns this different green and, and so, it's made me a lot less afraid of color, in general. And I can experiment more and use stranger colors next to each other, and find cooler combinations and stuff. And so my color is becoming more complex in my illustration work because of the painting class I took, even though they don't look the same, but it's the way I color in illustrations is way more simple than the way that I try to achieve color in oil painting. So it's good to have that extreme working knowledge to do something more simple.
Stephanie Eche 48:15
Which oil class did you take?
Massimo Mongiardo 48:17
This guy, John Parks. I might take, I might sign up for another one of his classes that he's doing this weekend, honestly. It was a, some sort of, it was called bringing your paintings to life or something like that. And it was a lot, it was a lot of like replicating photos. He just had a really nice way of teaching in that, he would just be like, just go like, do what I say, but then just kind of go for it, just get into the painting and just do it, you have to start just laying the paint down and cover the canvas. And so he kind of breaks the barrier a little bit for for you, instead of being so intimidated and so scared to mess it up. And he's funny, and his paintings are crazy. So it was satisfying to take a class like that. And for me, too, I just, the drawing style, it's like stuck now, too, so like even when I'm replicating a photo, it's like or, you know, painting from life, it's still like I'm still making the same moves. So yeah, it sounds weird to copy of photo, but his subjects, too, whatever the assignments would be, it would be something super simple, like paint water, or like paint a night scene and then you could just do whatever you wanted. So obviously, I have subject matter that I like to do. So I would just choose cool things and paint cool things and I don't know, it was just fun. And I learned a lot. So I think I might take another one. Honestly.
Stephanie Eche 49:46
Yeah, they're doing them all, well, some of them are online now, too.
Massimo Mongiardo 49:49
Yeah, but it's all on zoom.
Stephanie Eche 49:51
Yeah, it's weird. I'm doing a still life class on zoom and I love my teacher. It's Adam Cross at New York Academy of Art and he's amazing, but I miss being in a class, I miss being with everyone.
Massimo Mongiardo 50:02
Yeah, I know.
Stephanie Eche 50:03
It’s a totally different feeling.
Massimo Mongiardo 50:06
The class aspect is different. Like, it was really funny to be with this guy, John Parks, he would just make these dark jokes about how stressful painting can be and I don't know, he was just funny to be around. It's different when he's coming around looking at the canvas and grabbing the paintbrush being like, try that.
Stephanie Eche 50:22
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 50:24
So, we'll see. I still think I'm going to take the class though. I just learned so much last time and it gave me such a boost in skill level, so I want to keep doing that.
Stephanie Eche 50:37
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Stephanie Eche 51:07
What are some things you've been reading or listening to that's been inspiring lately?
Massimo Mongiardo 51:13
Oh man, listening to? So, a couple months ago, well, there's this radio station called NTS, which is based in London, and they've been doing a series called In Focus, which, it's all over the map, they've got an episode for Shawty and they've got an episode for Gucci Mane and they've got an episode for Gil Scott-Heron and the Gil Scott mix, it's like, I've become like obsessed with it. I listened, I've listened to it like 45 times and it's like an hour and a half long. So it's like, that's one thing. I stay up on the London radio stuff a lot. So I listen to the Hessle Audio show a lot, which is really good. But, everybody should check it out.
Stephanie Eche 51:56
Is it music? It's just a music thing?
Massimo Mongiardo 51:58
Yeah. I don't know if you've heard his music before. It’s kind of bluesy, modern bluesy, but there's a lot of poetry on this one too, and a lot of topical stuff as it turns out. So I recommend that and then reading, it's been kind of random. I read The Alchemist recently, my fiance bought it, and I read it and it was nice. And then I've been reading Steppenwolf, which is really slow and hard to read, but there's a lot of relatable stuff in it. So it's kind of, the old English writing is kind of nice, too. But nothing too crazy. I honestly don't read enough. But I listen to a ton of music. I don't, could not work without it.
Stephanie Eche 52:34
Do you have like a playlist that you've made? Or do you have, do you listen to those radio shows?
Massimo Mongiardo 52:40
I listen to the radio shows because there's tons of good DJs out there. Like there's the, there's, you just learn so much about different, like music scenes that and like the NTS In Focus thing is cool, because it's a lot of artists you've heard of, but someone curates the tracks from different parts of their career in a nice way. But there's also just so many DJs, and so many music movements, like Chicago footwork and jersey club music, and I don't know, there's just so much random stuff that's out there, I would have never been exposed to if I didn't listen to SoundCloud or NTS. And I've been on that rabbit hole for a while now, so I sort of know what I'm looking for. But I recommend people checking out SoundCloud and NTS radio. It's, there's tons of music out there.
Stephanie Eche 53:31
Yeah, I'll definitely link to it in the show notes. I love when DJs give you context, like I listen to Radio 3 from Madrid, Spain a lot because they have, they're on a different time zone, right, so there's that weird part of it, and they just go deep into artists who we know as Americans, because it's what we grew up with, you know, but they go way deep into somebody. And I'm like, I had no idea or like, just B tracks and stuff, B sides and you're like, why did, why are these people so much more obsessed where I feel like American radio, we don't give any context.
Massimo Mongiardo 54:04
American radio doesn't even play it. Yeah, there's so much music out there, they don't really play most of it, honestly. There's so much music. That's the thing you realize, a lot of these guys who I listened to on the radio are like, based in London, but they'll play DJ stuff that's from Brooklyn, but you never hear it on the radio in New York.
Stephanie Eche 54:23
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 54:23
It's like, I don't know why it's like that, but it’s the way it is. So yeah, I recommend checking out London radio. It's way better than American radio.
Stephanie Eche 54:33
I feel like any radio outside of the US is better than US radio.
Massimo Mongiardo 54:36
Yeah, I don't know why. I mean, it's funny to think about how London and England in general has just always been kind of the center for music, for a really long time. Beatles and Led Zeppelin and all that stuff. Just goes way back. So anyway, music. Definitely check out NTS radio In Focus, especially Gil Scott-Heron’s mix.
Stephanie Eche 54:57
I will definitely check it out. Who are a few people who have been the most influential to you?
Massimo Mongiardo 55:02
Well, it's been different, well, it changes. I think in the very beginning, it was like comic books, like cartoons. And then similar timeframe when I got a little older there was a lot of Egon Schiele and Gustav Klimt books around my dad's house and my mom's house, so a lot of those Viennese artists. And then when I started getting more into college and illustration, there was James Jean and Paul Pope, Ashley wood, who I mentioned before, and then there's so much, there's Tintin comics, Milo Manara. Now with Instagram, there's just so many, Carly Andrews is really crazy. That guy, Mr. Reese, who I mentioned before, and Axel Void, and so it's sort of like this mix of comic books and cartoons and anime and video games and more classical stuff and then like the Instagram current stuff. So I'm constantly pulling stuff. I wish I could remember this muralist. He's got stuff all over, Thomas Benton Hart is, I look at his stuff constantly. Because he did, he was an old American painter and his work was all about the working class. And he has a couple murals in New York from, you know, the turn of the century. That has been a big shift in thinking for me, because he does crazy things with scale and it'll be you know, it'll be like a city scene where a guy's forging iron, like on an anvil, and then super small scale, there's like criminals selling drugs, and it's just like he plays with scale. And the storytelling is, it's similar to what I was talking about my own work before where it's like, he's spelling it out for you. You see the whole picture at first, but then if you, the closer you go in, the more you notice, and so that's been a big influence on my work for the past, like couple years. It's all over the place and it comes from a lot of places, I mean, anime, too, like Miyazaki stuff and Dragonball Z and all those things too, as far as linework and just ways to treat scenes and ways to draw the human figure and it's really important to have reference, I think, and inspiration.
Stephanie Eche 57:13
Cool. What's a common myth about what you do, particularly around doing mural work?
Massimo Mongiardo 57:20
Yeah, it goes back to getting paid for everything, I guess. It's, you know, this is what, this is what you love to do, so just do it, kind of thing. And it's sort of like, well, why should I do it for you? Like, it's, yeah, you know, so, I think that's, that's really common in all aspects of commissioned art is like, well, you know, you're doing what you love, but I'll be honest, I think people are coming around a little bit. I think my last interview that you mentioned, The Process, the Process interview, I was a little bit more salty about getting paid. Because lately, people are like, well, how much do you charge? And before I wasn't really getting asked that question much and I don't know if it's because the art has gotten to a certain level, and I've just been exposed more, or if it's just becoming more common knowledge that, if you want something from an artist, you have to pay for it. And I feel like the decision to do something for free should be on the artist, unless you're offered that, don't, try not to ask for it. Because it's always kind of like a bummer. You’re like, oh, well, I wanted to be able, you know, I don’t know.
Stephanie Eche 58:29
You want to do the work, but you don't want to do it for free.
Massimo Mongiardo 58:31
Yeah, I want to do the work, I'd be happy to do it. But I could do the same thing pretty much, like if we're gonna go through the whole process of coming up with a concept and making a sketch and everything, what's the point of me doing it free? If I just can't do whatever, you know, so I think, yeah, the whole idea that you should just do this because you love it is totally off base, because it's something that you also practice and work on so much. And you put in so many hours. Like, why would, why would you do it for free?
Stephanie Eche 59:01
I am curious if you have any ideas of why do you think street art, but also mural art in particular, is so male dominated.
Massimo Mongiardo 59:09
I think it's just sort of old in the way that something like, like skateboarding is sort of similar culture where it's like, anybody can go do it, but at the same time, it's like only guys, and it's a really good escape kind of thing, but it sort of has this tough guy persona. And I think it, until recently, society and culture sort of separated women from that, more like you know, the past five, five to 10 years, you've been seeing a shift. I definitely know a handful of mural artists that are women, though. I think they're popping up in the scene a lot more for sure. Like for me, like you said, you came up to me and asked me questions, I don't, I don't feel like my position in the mural scene is stronger than anybody else. I did an artist's residency with these, this group of artists called Legendeer and one of the, I wouldn't really call them teachers, I don't know what you would say, mentors was this girl, Emily Herr and she, she's super strong. I think she does this thing called Girls! Girls! Girls! where she goes around driving a truck, she has a studio in an old, it’s like an ice cream truck, and she built her own studio in it, and she just drives around and paints these murals of celebrating women, and she's got a really strong style and she's really good. And so, I don't think it's, the scene is without them, it's definitely dominant, and in New York, too, I don't know, there's this, kind of this like, tough guy thing. I remember I almost applied for an apprenticeship with, what's that huge mural company, not SEEN, but the other one?
Stephanie Eche 59:52
Colossal.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:00:43
Colossal, yeah. And it was just like, the whole application was sort of like, we prefer people who worked in kitchens and are tough, and we prefer, than like artists, and it was more like, it had this tough thing and it was sort of like, it's not, that doesn't mean women can't have that kind of attitude, but it was sort of like this, for me, it wasn't that appealing. And so I think it's sort of just that attitude, I'm sort of making this comparison to skate, the skateboard scene, too, where it's like, people are like, well, girls aren't as good at it or whatever, which is, it doesn't really reflect what's going on.
Stephanie Eche 1:01:21
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:01:17
Especially with painting. I mean, women are like, there's billions of amazing women artists, it's not, I don't know why, honestly. Like I said, for me, I don't feel like some strong dominant figure in the scene at all. So I don't know why it would be dominated by men because women paint, there's no better or worse in painting. It's all just an even playing field and you can be super strong, no matter who you are, you just got to get good at it. Yeah, I don't know. I wish I had a better answer. Definitely check out Emily Herr, her stuff’s amazing. And she's doing a cool thing right now where she's giving up wall space for persons of color and letting them express themselves on wall spaces that she has and she's encouraging businesses to do it, too.
Stephanie Eche 1:02:06
Yeah, I do think just one anecdote of the like, Mexican mural movement, you know, like Riviera.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:02:12
Yeah, another person. I look at a lot, yeah.
Stephanie Eche 1:02:16
Yeah, so they were like the big three and everything. But there were also, like Maria Izquierdo was an artist during that time and she was doing just as good, if not better work than them. But they literally didn't let her do murals. She had mural projects and they told her she wasn't allowed to because she was a woman. So I think there's obscured, messed up things where certain people haven't been, and then she wasn't known as a mural artists because she wasn't allowed to do those projects. You know, it's just like layers and layers of things that have created this perception that women can't do it or they're not going to be as good, even though there are so many examples of women who would have been.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:02:52
Yeah, I mean, I often, it's so untrue, basically, like a ton of the people I follow on Instagram are female artists, like [INDISTINGUISHABLE], Vanessa Del Rey, Emily Herr, they're, it's like, they're pretty dominant, at least in my bubble, you know what I mean? So I think just back then, especially, history is sort of written in this singular perspective, which is something that everyone's talking about right now.
Stephanie Eche 1:03:19
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:03:20
And Gil Scott mix, he talks about that, too. It's been that way for a long time. And it's it sucks. It's bullshit.
Stephanie Eche 1:03:29
Well, hopefully we can change it.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:03:30
Yeah. I mean, it's one of the things that I think has to change and you can't, it's difficult right now. Truth is, the truth is sort of whatever you want it to be, which is, which is bizarre.
Stephanie Eche 1:03:43
What do you mean?
Massimo Mongiardo 1:03:44
Well, the news can change the narrative and Instagram can change the narrative and all that stuff. Like it, you know, the protests are probably still going on, but I don't see anything on the news right now.
Stephanie Eche 1:03:53
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:03:54
You know what I mean? So I don't know, might have ended, I guess. You know, so it's difficult, people have, you start to see how history works and it's sort of just written by someone who puts a stamp on it and says, this is what happened.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:09
Right.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:04:10
It's strange.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:11
Like the self fulfilling prophecy, kind of, like the more you put it, whoever controls the media and controls the news can just set the narrative, yeah. Well, that's a terrifying note.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:04:21
Yeah, that's a dark conversation for another time. Sorry.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:25
Well, on that note, how can our listeners connect with you online?
Massimo Mongiardo 1:04:29
Instagram is probably the best place. It's the thing I use the most, and I'm still working on my website, I have to fix it. And I don't really use Twitter, I don't really use Facebook. So, definitely Instagram.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:40
What's your handle on Instagram?
Massimo Mongiardo 1:04:42
It's just my name, @massimomongiardo. Yep, no spaces, no nothing. So yeah.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:47
I'll link to everything in the show notes.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:04:50
Cool. Thank you so much.
Stephanie Eche 1:04:51
Everything we talked about and yeah, thank you so much for talking. It was great to catch up. I wish it were under better circumstances.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:05:00
It's cool that we can do this. And it's cool that you're doing it. So, that's good.
Stephanie Eche 1:05:04
Thanks.
Massimo Mongiardo 1:05:04
Thanks for talking.
Stephanie Eche 1:05:05
Awesome. Thank you so much!
Massimo Mongiardo 1:05:06
Have a good one. See ya later.
Stephanie Eche 1:05:06
Thanks for listening to this episode of First Coat. If you liked this podcast, please leave a review. Make sure to subscribe to the First Coat podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And follow us on Instagram @firstcoatpodcast or @distillcreative. First Coat is a production of my company, Distill Creative. Check us out at distillcreative.com.