Public Art and Equity with Amina Kache Cooper- Ep 19
This week on First Coat we have Amina Cooper. Amina is a curator, public arts consultant and public art policy strategist and founder of Amewa Fine Art. She has over a decade of experience working with fine art and public art collections for leading municipalities, museums and galleries in Washington, DC and Boston, MA. She currently manages over 3 million dollars in large scale public art projects as a public art consultant. She is also the inaugural Forecast Change Lab Research Fellow and initiated a broad survey of black public art. She created and runs the Instagram account @Blackmonuments.
In this episode we talk about how to create more equity in the public art space and learn from Amina's experience leading large-scale public art projects.
This interview was recorded in July, 2021.
LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE HERE 👇🏾
LINKS
Podcast: Public Art & Black Lives Matter with Amina Cooper, Arts & Science Council
Flash of the Spirit: African & Afro-American Art & Philosophy by Robert Farris Thompson
Guest | Amina Kache Cooper, Curator, Public Arts Consultant and Public Art Policy Strategist
Amina Cooper is a curator, public arts consultant and public art policy strategist. Amina has over 10 years of experience working with fine art and public art collections for leading municipalities, museums and galleries in Washington, DC and Boston, MA. She currently manages over 3 million dollars in large scale public art projects as a public art consultant. In 2021, Amina became the inaugural Forecast Change Lab Research Fellow and initiated a broad survey of black public art and public art policies, in a continuation of her work recording public art by Black creators via @Blackmonuents on Instagram. She is a member of the Americans for the Arts Public Art Advisory Network. She received a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree from Howard University and a Master of Science degree in Arts Administration from Boston University.
Find Amina on Instagram @blackmonuments and on her website at www.amewafineart.com.
Your Host | Stephanie Eche, CEO & Founder of Distill Creative
Stephanie Eche is an artist and art consultant based in Brooklyn, NYC.
Follow Stephanie on Instagram (@distillcreative or @stephanie_eche), Twitter (@stephanie_eche), YouTube (Distill Creative), LinkedIn, and check out her art website.
Support First Coat by backing us on our Patreon.
Learn more about Distill Creative’s art consulting services.
Are you an artist? Sign up for our Distill Directory and you’ll be considered for art commissions and future projects.
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Stephanie Eche 00:02
Welcome to First Coat, where we explore public realm art, how it's made and why it matters. I'm your host Stephanie Eche an artist and entrepreneur based in Brooklyn, New York. I run Distill Creative where I curate and produce site specific art projects for real estate developers. I focus on creating more equitable and inclusive projects, and I want to get more exposure for the artists and developers doing this work. This week on First Coat we have Amina Cooper, Amina is a curator, public arts consultant and public art policy strategist and founder of AMEWA Fine Art. She has over a decade of experience working with fine art and public art collections for leading municipalities, museums and galleries in Washington, DC and Boston, Massachusetts. She currently manages over $3 million and large scale public art projects as a public art consultant. She is also the inaugural forecast change lab research fellow and initiated a broad survey of black public art she created and runs the Instagram account Black Monuments. In this episode, we talk about how to create more equity in the public art space and learn from Amina's experience leading large scale public art projects. Here's our conversation.
Stephanie Eche 01:07
Welcome to First Coat. Thank you so much for being a guest today. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Amina Kache Cooper 01:14
Sure, and thank you so much for having me. My name is Amina. I am originally from Atlanta, Georgia and I am a public art consultant and fine art advisor. And I have my own practice, it's called Amewa Fine Art and what I do for clients is help them manage the project management piece of coordinating a public art project. But I additionally work with individuals and groups that are interested in either acquiring a collection of either public or fine art and also to manage that collection once they've established it.
Stephanie Eche 01:50
That sounds awesome. Right up our alley? How would you define arts in public space?
Amina Kache Cooper 01:57
That's a great question. And I think that that definition is one that has evolved over time. In my view, public art is any expression, any artistic, cultural, creative expression, in the public realm, outdoors or in community spaces that is created, either in partnership or in dialogue with community or with the community or landscape as a consideration. And I think for a long time, we've typically thought of that as bronze sculptures or, or whatever major stainless steel piece that you're seeing commissioned in the 70s in front of City Hall. But I think that definition have expanded and broadened thankfully, to include you know, all types of materials and media and also work that's not permanent, that's temporary, and works in processes that don't typically yield anything tangible. It's a really exciting time to be in the field.
Stephanie Eche 02:52
In an interview you did with Engaging Local Government Leaders, you talked a lot about growing up near an airport, and how that was your first experience of public art. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Amina Kache Cooper 03:03
Yeah. So it's it's so interesting now that I'm you know, my primary client right now is an airport in Charlotte, you know, my mother retired from Delta Airlines. And I think she started working there the year that I was born and worked there for 20 years. So one of the perks of being you know, a dependent of somebody that works for an airline is typically you get to fly for free or at a significantly reduced cost. So, you know, I've been flying for as long as I remember. And I've had the great fortune of being able- being able to travel all across the world. So my earliest memories of public art is going through the old old terminals at Hartsfield. And there was this neon work by Stephen Antonakos. And so after going through security, you go down these stairs that take you onto a train that will take you to the terminals. There's these beautiful, neon, super 80s style beyond artworks, and I just remember them catching my eye. And every time I traveled is looking forward to seeing them. Because it just was it was sited at such a location in the airport where you knew if you saw them, you were getting ready to start your journey. So I'll you know, unfortunately, they didn't stop those words that make way for advertising, which is it's, you know, that's what happens. But that was my earliest memory of public art without really recognizing that it was public art.
Stephanie Eche 04:23
How did you first start doing work in public space?
Amina Kache Cooper 04:27
It was interesting, and it was, you know, kind of a struggle to sort of get to this role, which is a role that I've always wanted. I've always wanted to work in the arts, but in a more broadly accessible capacity. I studied fine art and photography at Howard University and journalism, and I originally thought that I would be this really cool fine art photographer, and then I interned with a commercial commercial photographer, and that just totally killed all of the joy that I had for it. So I thought, okay, I need to work on the other end and be an administrator so went to Boston University got an Arts Management degree, and ended up working after a couple of roles at a local arts agency. And my background in journalism caused me to come into the role of managing communications, and also doing grant writing. So I fell into this role as a grant writer and a fundraiser, I was working with my organization to try to acquire one of the NEA our town grants. And just that process of gathering information, interviewing community, gathering documents, researching, putting together a proposal, specifically around a public art project in an underserved, sort of historically neglected part of the state caused me to have more of an understanding of public art. And I think it helped put me on the radar of RCO. So by the time we got our grant, the former public arts manager transitioned out of the organization, and she was like, "Was this something that you would want to do?" And I was like, "Absolutely, I've been waiting for you to ask me that." So that's how I came into public art and started managing the collection that the county had acquired since the 70s. So it's really broad collection of outdoor sculpture, but also work on paper or some paper that had been in the city buildings and county buildings that I was responsible for managing and figuring out the next steps for.
Stephanie Eche 06:25
Would you say you do a lot of research based on whatever project you're working on? Or do you depend on research that you had as an undergrad? What's the continued learning life, like for you?
Amina Kache Cooper 06:36
Honestly, I would say, the learning that occurred for me at Howard, and at Boston University, particularly around nonprofit management is just it's so integral to the work that I do now, because a lot of public art management is understanding budgets, understanding the structures of how businesses and nonprofit enterprises work, undertaking city funding, county funding and basic accounting. And then, you know, my background sort of studying to be this fine artist helped me really work better with artists today, because I understand sort of their concerns their fears, or capacities, and I just, I feel like I communicate better with artists, because I have training as an artist.
Stephanie Eche 07:19
What's the role of photography in both preparing a public art project and also, when assessing the project?
Amina Kache Cooper 07:26
You know, I don't think so much that my like, I know that I use my photography degree, generally, it comes into play when I'm evaluating portfolios, or I'm thinking about how we want to document work. But it was just really sort of the broad training that I had studying Fine Arts and a Howard you had like, I had a photo degree, but I was studying ceramics and still cleaning and all of those things. And I think that that's primarily the main thing that helped me work with artists in this role, because it's really being able to work with an artist, and then your client group, and then trying to find like a bridge between those two very different, sometimes very different styles of communication, and then hierarchy of needs.
Stephanie Eche 08:11
How do you approach curating for art and public space?
Amina Kache Cooper 08:14
Well, for me, you know, I- the public art is that the word public is just first and foremost. So I try to take a backseat, and really think about what the needs of the community are and what the needs of the client are, and figure out how we can meet both of those needs. And then also to address needs and concerns that maybe haven't been articulated, or weren't even understood as needs or concern. Generally, what we, you know, a sort of a best practice for the field, is to create either a panel or a group of decision makers and policymakers that represent both sort of artistic expertise, but also are composed of folks that are actually in the community. So when we're looking and evaluating artists, we have their perspectives as a community member saying, Hey, this is what we need, we would love to see this, you know, we're super drawn to that. And then you also have client representation saying, okay, yes, this would work we can, we can get behind this. And then you're starting that communication and a dialogue that really has to sort of play out throughout the entire process of commissioning, you know, the installation. And then, you know, generally once we selected an artist based on community and play client input, and then our expertise as the administrators, we still go back to a community oriented process where the artist that you selected and we bring on board is able to either have meetings, community meetings, charettes. However, that process looks like for them and luckily artists are so they're just the brilliance is that they're able to do that in a really new, unique way. So either, you know, sometimes they'll create our community and then learn about community interest and communities that way, but the idea and the hope is that they're able to integrate those community voices into the final product without really sort of impinging on what the artists desires are. And then my role as a public art administrator, as a project manager, is to make sure that the artist has the support that they need, that the community voice is not lost throughout their creative process. And then I also generally like and thinking about curating public space, I like to think about who is presented and how we can best compliment and make comprehensive, you know, that work that is then creating a body of work, you know, you're adding to an existing collection. So I'm thinking, what materials haven't we seen, which community neighborhoods have not had work cited? So then we might focus on that community, we might focus on a particular culture or community neighborhood that really hasn't had an opportunity to see themselves reflected. So those are the primary considerations. But as you can see, there are a myriad of considerations. But for me, community, the residents, the people that have to live in that space are the primary.
Stephanie Eche 11:00
And how do you assess which communities haven't been represented or haven't been seen in the public art, or general?
Amina Kache Cooper 11:09
A lot of that is, that's where the data and the collection and the research comes in, I had the good fortune, really sort of at the start of my career in public art, managing a collection, and working with the right consultants that, you know, did assessments of the collection. So in order to say, okay, this is what we should do, you have to really look at the collection as it is and say, okay, this is what- this is where we've installed work. This is the term, the period of time in which we've created these works, this is the majority of material that we've used. And then just in terms in the same way that you'll look at sort of funding and see, you'll see patterns and finding which communities which organizations have gotten funding over a period of time, it's the same way with public art, if you have records that she can rely upon. And even if you don't have records, you just go out into the community and see like, okay, well, we have a lot of works in this in this urban center in this downtown area. But these, you know, rural communities, often you'll see deserts. So it's a combination of looking at your records, great collection management practices, but then also just, you know, footwork just going out into the community and seeing what exists. And you know, where the disparities are.
Stephanie Eche 12:18
How do you keep track of all of this? Is there a system that you use? Does it depend on the client?
Amina Kache Cooper 12:24
It depends on the client and agency, I've been able to work it at organizations that had collection management system. So in the same way that you would have a database or, you know, honestly, sometimes it's even just an Excel spreadsheet, unfortunately. Other times it's more robust database systems where you can track when work is created, when it's installed, who the artist is, in the same way that museums have systems that track or because that's the way that you know, you know, you're able to track maintenance, we know when maintenance needs will pop up when when the work is due for conservation, because generally that's on a on a time cycle. So you're you have to have really robust, or just any sort of system to help manage that because you know these works, they're not inexpensive, generally. And it's an investment and you want to be able to take care of your investment over time.
Stephanie Eche 13:12
In your blog post 'How Public Art Programs Can Join the Movement Against Police Brutality, White Supremacy, and Anti Black Racism in American Arts,' you wrote, "It is time to talk about the lack of diversity within our public art commission's artists, selection panels, and other public artists workforce, we need to address the elitism which we with which we dictate to communities, which artworks are acceptable, and which persons and cultures are worth affirming with monuments and beautiful objects." And I'll put that link in the show notes. So everybody can actually read the article, because it's a great article. How do you think art programs, public art programs, and private funders can better support artists and organizations who are outside of those that have been historically funded?
Amina Kache Cooper 13:55
Yeah, that is a great question. And as you know, somebody that works in public art, but is also really sort of sees herself as a, you know, a policy strategist. I'm continually- continuously asking myself that question. And, you know, looking for best practices answered, what I can say is that that is, you know, something that we have to continue to ask ourselves, I think the benchmark, the very basic thing that we should do, that we still have not done is to sort of break up the the homogenous-ness of our field, it's difficult to bring in and accept different viewpoints and perspectives when there's, you know, one sort of solid voice in charge of sort of ecosystem that is our field. So when you look at the field of public art administrators, I believe it's almost 80%, white and female. Similarly, in art, you know, because it's a marriage between urban designers or planners, architects, artists, government, policymakers, and there's not enough diversity within those particular fields so, there's just a lack of one, there's racial bias, there's a lack of understanding of how to even deal with diverse communities in order to integrate them. And there's this sort of a narrowness in terms of what we perceive as excellence, or even our own sort of modes of aesthetic sensibility, it's very narrow. So until we're at the point where that those people's making those decisions and selecting artists, and then you know, the selecting which neighborhoods get funding for, like, the communities that they're serving, we're not we're not going to get there. So I for me, I feel like that's that is going to do is really just address how to, you know, combat to- of racial bias, making sure that our fields and our workforces are more culturally and racially diverse. Once we do that, we'll be able to take on other other sort of micro strategies around, you know, best ways to engage in community outreach and best ways to support artists. Because right now, strategies are, they're not really great. Like they're we just have so much work to do, and integrating new voices, intergenerational voices, multicultural voices into this field, for me is the top priority.
Stephanie Eche 16:21
How do you influence that when you're working on a project?
Amina Kache Cooper 16:25
Well, one of the things that I've tried to do at the really at the beginning of you know, we have funding, we want to create art, what should we do in making sure that, you know, the Artist's Election Committee, the, you know, the boards, in a sense, are diverse. So if I'm an administrator on a project, what I'll do is say, okay, listen, and I honestly, it will be like, okay, we have a couple of African Americans from the neighborhood where this work is going to go, we have some female voices, we have some LGBTQ voices, we have some, you know, voices that represent Western and European traditions, how, do we have a table that looks like our communities, and it's just it's such, it's easier to work from there. And if that's something that you can't do, as an administrator, you know, another strategy that I've done partnership with another leader that I worked with, is saying, hey, this work is 100%, white, you know, staff is the are the only persons of color at this table. So we need to, we need to create new policies and those policies included during that the the board was culturally diverse. And that meant that the people who were on that board had to leave. So you know, sometimes you have to really just go into, you have to write the rules, in order to me, because a lot of a lot of the time these organizations, and entities are operating under practices that were created. Many, many moons ago, many years ago, when, you know, the concept of cultural or racial equity was just sort of like this far flung theory that nobody cared about, you know, a lot of organizations are operating under these policies that haven't really been revisited since the 70s, since the 60s. So that's always a really great place to start for me, as somebody that works in policy and strategic planning is to say, hey, do you have guidelines, you have policies? And is it time to revisit them?
Stephanie Eche 18:22
So taking a look at the foundation of the organization? backwards, before you can go forward?
Amina Kache Cooper 18:28
Exactly, you know, because a lot of the times, you know, the culture, and the values are, you know, they come out of these strategic planning documents these mission statements, the value statements, and until you sort of realign that you're not going to see those outcomes that, you know, will produce more equitable outcomes for communities.
Stephanie Eche 18:48
It seems like there's a I don't want to call it a trend. But it does seem a little bit like a trend of organizations trying to be more equitable, or being more diverse and having an outside consultant come in and like fix everything. How do you think that's been going? or what have you seen, just generally with with that?
Amina Kache Cooper 19:08
You know, I feel like that is, it's a process that a lot of organizations need to go through. But I think for anything like that can be successful. It takes one strong leadership at the organization and from the AD or the director, to your volunteers, to your board of directors. So if there is not a will there, then you need to change the leadership and then recompose your board until that is a value because you can bring in a consultant all day to create best, you know, best practices and to create recommendations, but if the will isn't there, and it's, it's generally or it's just, you know, a thing that we were going to see that we do so that we can get this fund,, you know, because we know that grant- you know, grantors are funding these initiatives. It's not going to be successful it's going to be hard.
Stephanie Eche 19:57
How would you define equity in public art?
Amina Kache Cooper 20:01
Oh, that's a great question. You know, for me, you know, I just I think about my experiences, managing collections, and seeing these same artists in the records as having executed these works across across decades, equity in public art means that everybody in the community has an opportunity wanting to engage with art in the public realm. So, you know, we're not just creating these pockets, where we're only placing public art in white affluent neighborhoods means that every neighborhood gets to have public art in their community. And it also means that artists that are, you know, non white, that are multi generational, you know, from different schools, different backgrounds, are able to participate in the process as artists, as community members who get to choose and select art, you know, that everybody is a part of that ecosystem, and that the people who live in those communities get to see themselves in their values in their desires, aspirations reflected in the art community. So for me, that is what equity is that everybody is, you know, appropriately represented at the table.
Stephanie Eche 21:11
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Stephanie Eche 21:24
Are there any places whether that's a city or a town or an organization that you think are doing this well?
Amina Kache Cooper 21:31
Well, for one, I will say that a lot of times we live with public art, and we don't recognize the full guard. You know, I love seeing art in part, but I also love seeing art in transit. And I guess I'm biased because I'm, you know, I've been working with an airport for a while, but I feel like those sorts of unlikely places are really going to see really cool examples of public art, you know, I love and I also love sort of this integration of art where people are working and living and playing, you know, I'm born and raised in Atlanta. So I'm biased, but I love the work that they're doing at the Atlanta Beltline, where you know, people can eat and sip and drink and bike ride, and there's artwork that that's across all budgets that they can see and enjoy. I love the work that they're doing at LaGuardia Airport. I mean, you know, I, I just really love beautiful, monumental works by diverse artists. But I also I'm really increasingly interested in sort of this idea of social practice. I am a longtime fan of Rick Lowe and the work that they're doing with a project row houses in Houston, I love that model of saying, Hey, you know, we're going to build it, since nobody wants to fund it, we're going to manage the artwork in our community, we're going to support our community of artists. And, you know, I was recently working in Charlotte. And similarly, sort of like the newer version of that or new iteration of that is a project called rolled up ELT managed by really just brilliant public art administrator, Jessica Moss, where she's flipping, sort of rehabbing these under utilized homes, creating spaces where artists can have- of have a fellowship here, where they're integrated into the community, they get to learn what the community's issues are they create projects based on sort of that relationship, that they're building the community over time. So I'm going to list a few of the things that I'm that I'm looking at that I really love.
Stephanie Eche 23:25
Thank you. I'll put links for all of those in the show notes so people can take a look at those, those projects and ongoing opportunities to see really great public art. How do you suggest measuring equity and in a public art project, or program?
Amina Kache Cooper 23:40
Yeah. So that kind of leads me to this really wonderful fellowship opportunity that I've been fortunate to, to forecast public art in their chain lab fellowship. One of the things that I kept hearing this reoccurring recurring theme from my colleagues is that, hey, we want to commissioned more artists of color, we want to work with more black artists, but we don't know how to find them. That led me to create this, you know, Instagram page, Black Monuments, where all I do is just post public artworks created by people of African descent. And then that led me to really think about how do we get more public works created by black artists and particularly, but then I also just focus on black artists one because I'm black, but also I just feel like anything that's going to work for black folks also helps serve Latinx, Asian, and then indigenous communities as well. Those strategies can also are just, you know, applicable as well. So my fellowship sort of proposal is really to serve a field of entities that are commissioning art and seeing them what their funding structures are, you know, how do they manage their panels or artist selection panels, how often are they commissioning works by black artists and its service serving their existing collection and saying how many of these other collection are actually created by black people and asking them for their success stories, hopefully, what I'll find just in the serving process are trends to say, you know, for example, you know, entities that have that rely primarily on funding from foundations, rather than individuals see more success in commissioning artists of color, for example, I'm trying to tie these outcomes to specific policy decisions that are tied to the overall management of public art programs. So I'm relying on that sort of, you know, hard data. But I also am in the process of this fellowship is I wanted one on one interviews with artists, black artists, just ask them about their experiences, to see you know, how we can improve our relationships with artists, black artists of color, from a standpoint of, you know, policymaker, because often, you know, we're just so happy to get these opportunities that will, we will put up with a lot of things that we shouldn't put up with, I really wanted to get those both perspectives or perspectives of the funder and the commissioner and the perspective of the artists that it has to navigate these policies in order to create these works. Hopefully, by combining those different types of data, I'll be able to see some trends and create best practices for the fields that we can use.
Stephanie Eche 26:19
How much of the class status of the artist are you tracking?
Amina Kache Cooper 26:23
That's a great question. You know, I have I have not tracked that in the survey that I've done. But anecdotally, what I see, and I kind of feel like this is an issue that we have more on the side of the administrator is that we have these perceptions that the projects that we receive, that have these big ticket budgets assigned to them feel that you have to have a Masters or terminal degree in the arts in order to execute those projects at that level. And the perception, even even if you'll see artists that are non white, come to the table with advanced degrees, their perception is that you still can execute at that level. But then you're not getting enough commissions and then because you don't have commissions, you can't say, these are my past projects. So that's, that's another issue that we have and when I when we talk about sort of broadening our perspective, our sense of aesthetic, it's really, it's also attacking that bias that only you know, white males with Masters or MFA or degrees in architecture, are able to, you know, manage a project with a six figure budget. And sometimes I think, you know, what we'll see also when art when arts organizations are attempting to create equitable strategies and bring in artists of color into this public art process. So they'll create these programs that will, you know, relegate these very tiny budgets, these 1000 $50,000 budgets for murals or things like that artists of color and I don't think that that's helpful, either.
Stephanie Eche 28:02
Yeah, it's something that is very frustrating to me both as a curator and project manager of public art projects, mostly in the private sector, and also as an artist, that I'll look up an artist that did a really amazing public art project, who might be a person of color, right? And always, like, Oh, they got an MFA at Yale or, RISD or IKA, or UCLA, like, it's always that, and it's so frustrating, because I'm, I'm starting to do more CV research myself just in for my own art career. But when I'm looking for artists, there's that, you know, how do you widen the net of who you're going to suggest for a project or look at for inspiration for things or for budgets and things like that, if we continue to pick people who come out of the same pedigree of art institutions? And on the flip side, how do you convince someone to trust somebody with a really large budget if they've never done anything like that before? And so there's just such a gap between the the two to 50k murals, the million dollar budgets that are being done by the same people who may be people of color, but are, it's, you know, obviously, it's like a very small fraction of people at that level, who are people of color, but they're, they still, I think, come from the same background of, you know?
Amina Kache Cooper 29:30
I, you know, I tend to think and this is sort of a conversation that we've been having is that if an artist doesn't have experience, but has an amazing concept, have demonstrated the capacity to create or to complete a project at a high level, give them the opportunity, because you know, me, as a project manager, my role is to support them, my role is to help them and I feel like we have to sort of just expand the way that we think about what our role is it's not just managing budgets, it's providing support of all kinds to artists that they can execute these projects, you know, so whether that looks like pairing them with a fabricator, helping them obtain insurance, which I've done or helping them partner with a more experienced artists, I think that those are great strategies. I've also seen it that where written into the, the apple contract is that is a simulation where you have to work with a local artist, they don't have these programs, they have the opportunity to put that project that they've worked on with a more experienced artist on a resume. I think that we have to be more creative and and really broaden the the idea of what our role is as public art administrators as people, you know, working in support in the arts, and really helping provide capacity, building, and training support to artists so that we do see more diversity in the field, but also understanding you know, that they're, you know, one of the things that I tell people when they're like, oh, you know, we'd love to find an African American for this project, you know, there are great programs, and that we are in, you know, and sometimes even when we come out of those programs, we still don't get the opportunity. So, you know, I don't want to- there's also just to be this sort of misconception that you're not going to see non white artists or professionals with advanced degrees or coming out of great programs, because we will.
Stephanie Eche 31:26
Yeah, that's kind of why I asked the class question, because I think something you said about like artists showing that they've completed a project at a high level, it seems like sometimes that's like having access to funds to be able to do a personal project at a high level to do a personal project at all, after you get your MFA. And instead of getting sucked back into, you know, the daily grind of just trying to pay your bills and working anywhere for money art related or not, but not being able to put time and effort into some substantial project to be able to show that you can do a project on your own, and then it kind of becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy doing art.
Amina Kache Cooper 32:03
Stephanie, thats that's a great point. And one of the things you know, I really hope to address that in my interviews with artists, it just really standing what the barriers are that they have had to overcome in order to be successful in the field.
Stephanie Eche 31:16
Yeah, I'm super curious what what everybody says, and I'll probably ask you once it's once-
Amina Kache Cooper 32:22
No, I'm so looking forward to getting completed and sharing the results with everybody. Because I really do hope that something in there that people can take away to, you know, create more equitable outcomes.
Stephanie Eche 31:35
What are your thoughts on real estate development and public art?
Amina Kache Cooper 32:38
Oh, am I don't have great guides. And only because only because I have been on a board that was specific to public art and private development. And I don't want to say that that experience is typical for, you know, art and in private development. But I will say it seemed to me that the developers were only interested in having they're ideas sort of rubber stamp rigorousness in terms of identifying artists same process to make sure there's done equitably, and not the same sort of investment and making sure that the project and the artwork is right for the space, but also for the community. And oftentimes, I feel like those boards are just sort of rubber stamping, whatever it is that developers want to do in order to mirror there's always this sort of a concession and exchange of entities. And so I, I personally, I just feel like that's such a clear thing, I think it's the benefit of any developer to, of course, art is a great way to attract interest into your project, and to ensure that there's traffic by your project, but you also want to maintain a relationship with that community that you're, you're building your project in. So investing in local artists, creating a community based process and selecting that art, that artist will create a better vision for the project. But sometimes what I've seen is a developer who has an owner who's wealthy that says, oh, I can let this artist I want this artist to be on the front of this building, or, oh, my gosh, nobody knows this artist, or oh, I've seen this here. Let's put it right here. And it's just unfortunately, they're not the same constraints that nonprofit or local arts agencies have with me, you know, oftentimes, you're free from those constraints. And sometimes that can be a good thing, you know, not have to go through sort of a bureaucratic process in order to create work that way, you know, you can say, hey, I want to make sure that there's an African American artist for this project. So we're going to do direct select, sometimes it can be good, but without sort of that expertise on the active developer, and you're not-either way.
Stephanie Eche 34:53
Yeah, I think all the examples you gave are unfortunate. And that's part of why I do what I do. Because it's just, it was so frustrating when I was in house at a real estate developer. And it's just like, so random, but it's not random. It's it's exactly what you said, it's someone they collect, and they want to get their personal collections. So they're willing to put in that investment for the public piece, or yeah, just they happen to know this random person who makes art. It's awesome. So it's been interesting to try and push the other direction, and also always starting with what is actually going on in this place, like, what, what is already here, and who can we actually support and cultivate for an something that I've seen, that's kind of interesting, I was just like, or what I'd like to get to, with my clients, and that I love seeing with other projects and other areas is you can fund smaller level things and then build up so that those artists in the community are able to take on the larger project, and both sides are more comfortable with it. But on the flip side, I also totally understand, like, I'm not gonna take any money from real estate developers ever. And so I I like I'm a democratic socialist, like I, I'm, like, anti capitalist, and so I, but I also need to make money. So it's just like this weird being stuck in that middle. And I see, to your point, like one of the frustrations I've had as an artist in applying for things is that you have to live in a place for a certain amount of time, you have to have a statement of proof of living there. What if you're not on a lease, like there have been plenty of times, I just, I don't have anything that shows that I live somewhere, or I haven't lived there long enough, or I don't meet these random could they're not random, but they're credentials that have been passed down that I think sometimes were intentionally trying to keep certain people out of being able to make art in the in the area. So when private funders are willing to just put up the money and they don't, they don't really care how it happens. If somebody can go in and make it happen in a more equitable way, I think that's good. It's just, I agree with you that we need to have more policies that actually make sure that people are doing that.
Amina Kache Cooper 36:55
Yeah. And, and I understand it, because, you know, bringing the art on site, that's the fun thing. You know, like, if I'm a real estate developer, that's the one thing that I do want to have my hand in, right. But I just feel like you always need to have experts at the table. And a great art advisor or just a community member, being a part of those conversations and decisions is really helpful. Because the other thing too, is that the public is not going to make the distinction between this is art in and private property, and this is art for the public. They're just going to see art outdoors, and assume that maybe either the city or the county, you know, manage our process when they did. So I just feel like it's always best to, you know, you always want to meet your own organizational client goals. But, you know, if it's, if it's work that has to interface with the public, whether or not they're your customer or not, it's just considerate is the appropriate and smart thing to do. That that, that it's a cohesive part of a broader landscape.
Stephanie Eche 38:01
Definitely.
Stephanie Eche 38:03
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Stephanie Eche 38:17
How did you start AMEWA Fine Art?
Amina Kache Cooper 38:19
When I came out of grad school, I finally landed on like what I wanted to do professionally and that was managed art collections for businesses, for individuals for corporations. And so my end goal, like I just felt like the last thing that I would do after working for other people was occurring my own business, my own practice. So even when I was employed by other people, I was still sort of sort of setting the stage for that, you know, so I started an LLC, I gave it a name. And, you know, there's this book by, I believe it's Robert Ferris Thompson. And it's called Clash of the Spirit. And he's talking about the the African traditions in contemporary African American art. And that term is an artistic term that has a relationship to black aesthetics. So that's why I selected that name. Because even in my professional work, I always want to consider black artists or aesthetics that are non Western, non traditional, because that's like that's, that is how you're going to get a great collection is considering multicultural voices. So anyway, started an LLC, didn't expect really to have to activate it at all. If I got opportunities to write if I got, you know, sort of programs, I would I just thought that that would be a vehicle to pass it through there. And then with with COVID I found myself you know, sort of self employed and having these increasing opportunities to work on my own, and it's really been wonderful. So I've been able to continue to do project management for CLT airport just through my own business. And I also I write my fellowship and other opportunities working with individual clients, I helped a good friend of mine acquire some work and frame it, which is just such a delight when I'm able to do all of that through my business now. So I'm just hoping to just get more opportunities to do planning more project management opportunities. And I'll work with indivisible public artists, just to share sort of what I know in terms of, if you want to commission, this is the way to do it, you're trying to project this is how you should do it and not and I don't necessarily want to do that as a part of my practice. But I just I want to work with more artists that are interested in breaking into this field and this provides them with best practices and ideas and then support, even if it's just a phone call. I'm really, really happy with the way things are going.
Stephanie Eche 40:50
That sounds great. It's, it's amazing that you've just kind of, I mean, you've been doing this work for a long time, but to be able to launch and do it on your own terms as your own business is really awesome.
Amina Kache Cooper 41:01
I'm hoping it's helpful. I just feel like you know, our field, we just need more more expertise, more expertise, that's not tied to an organization that's free to just work with different clients and share best practices. And, you know, that has, you know, a different perspective, you know, as an African American woman that worked in public art, you know, sort of rarefied air, there are a few of us across the country in this space. And there's not a no word problem, as I mean, there's a lot of opportunities, you know, and I just, I just feel like, it's great work to be doing and a great service that we provide to our community.
Stephanie Eche 41:38
How do you work with artists currently?
Amina Kache Cooper 41:40
Yeah, well, so I've worked with artists as a project manager. So essentially, what I do is when we bring an artist on board to create work, and when they're under contract, and even before they're under contract, I'm helping to make sure that they're that the process that selects that brings them on board is equitable, make sure that they have the things that they need. And then when they're under contract, I'm managing, you know, repeater budgets, I give them the autonomy to create their own budgets, but I just make sure that that's on track, and that there's enough contingency to manage the communication between the artist and the client, in the in the commissioning body, but also, the contractor, the engineers, construction team, the contractor, team subcontractors, make sure that the artist has all the information that they need in order to do work that is going to be appropriate for the site. So nothing fails, nothing and everything, all the engineering, all the sketches, all designs are approved. And then taking all of those steps from the concept to their schematic design or final design, their their final drawings, all of that is approved and routed through the right people to our clients. And the people that also that are ultimately the funders or visioning body is finding all of that information from the artist to the very disparate teams. And all of the approvals are, are done, and are successful in that the artist has what they need to be able to move in fabrication and ultimately installation. And in doing that, particularly for an airport that is that will include a lot of security clearances and badges and things like that. So it complicates things. But it's it makes it so much more exciting to just people to work in a dynamic field like that.
Stephanie Eche 43:24
It's fun. Yeah, those parts of things are fun, even though it's like a lot of problem solving.
Amina Kache Cooper 43:31
A lot of problem solving a lot of fire, putting out-ing. And lot of what you have to really just speak different languages. You have to be able to talk to the artists. Talk to the guys with the construction hats on. You know, sometimes it's like night and day.
Stephanie Eche 43:45
Yeah, I'm always kind of surprised by how rare it is for someone to have those two skills because it's something that I know like people who I talk to you do or who I work with often do like, obviously you do and but then when I talk to artists, sometimes they're like, oh my gosh, thank goodness, you were there for this thing. And it's like what it was just, that's just you just have to deal with lots of different personalities and backgrounds. But then on the flip side, it's like knowing like, Okay, this person is probably going to react this way or this person doesn't have any idea what they're talking about. So I can't just be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then expect them to, or clearly this person, because of the bureaucracy of the site is not aware of what's going on. So you have to explain everything.
Amina Kache Cooper 44:30
it's such a fun challenge, it really is. And I think, you know, keeping in mind that everybody has the same goal of just making something successful. And making the landscape the site whatever look good. The artist wants to look good architect wants to look good. Everybody has the same goal. They just might speak different language and have different ideas. But getting people on that same page is really fulfilling.
Stephanie Eche 44:55
And you probably get to make a lot of people's days happy when it's done. When you see like the end goal and you know, even if it's someone you just walked by that day, especially if it's at some what- where like an airport where there's so many people going by.
Amina Kache Cooper 45:08
It's, you know, it's so funny, you know, a lot of the projects that I'm working on, are like five years in the making. I get a lot less of those moments and more of a, like, a headache moment. You know, because these aren't, it's, it takes long range long term planning to get this done. So that gratification is, is so much delayed. gratification, this is not the space for you. But it's really nice, when you see start to see stuff come out of the shop, see it being fabricated. And when it's installed and dedicated, it's amazing.
Stephanie Eche 45:44
Yeah, I want to go see some of the projects that you've worked on once they're completed.
Amina Kache Cooper 45:08
Yeah, give it another couple years. Another couple of years, there's so many projects, and I'm like, okay, well, in 2024, people are gonna be really excited.
Stephanie Eche 46:00
It is an interesting thing, where, especially with social media, it's like what do you share If it's a spreadsheet that you've been working on for a long time, or just, you know, it's so much of it is not tangible, which kind of goes back to also public art that isn't actually tangible, as well, as another example of that, I guess, I have so many more questions. But I'm, I'm so happy with being able to talk to you.
Amina Kache Cooper 46:23
It's so great to speak with you to Stephanie, I you know, I really appreciate this conversation. And thank you for your time and just you're asking the right questions. And you know, any opportunity to talk about this work is I love so thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche 46:37
Thank you so much for being a guest. And I think people are really going to enjoy hearing from your perspective, because we haven't actually had a lot of art administrators besides when I talk about what I'm doing. And I think it's super important to know, like, there are really great people doing this work.
Amina Kache Cooper 46:55
Its so behind the scenes, you'll never, you'll never know. And and that's great. You know, I always want the the artist and the client like this is your thing. I just helped facilitate it. And this isn't my project.
Stephanie Eche 47:06
How can our listeners find you online?
Amina Kache Cooper 47:09
So my website is amewafineart.com. A-M-E-W-A fine art.com. And on Instagram, you can find me @BlackMonuments on Instagram. And if you're interested in discovering works by African American designers, and architects and public spaces, make sure you follow that page.
Stephanie Eche 47:27
Thank you so much for everything you're working on. And thank you again for being a guest, and I'll be following you on the internet.
Amina Kache Cooper 47:34
Awesome. It's so nice to meet you, Stephanie. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche 47:43
Thanks for listening to this episode of First Coat. If you'd like this podcast, please leave a review. Make sure to subscribe to the First Coat Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And follow us on Instagram @firstcoatpodcast or @distillcreative. First Coat was a production of my company, Distill Creative. Check us out at distillcreative.comDescription text goes here