Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya on Passion Projects, the Cold Email, and Landing a Solo Show - Ep 2

ON THIS EPISODE

This week on First Coat we have Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya. Amanda is a multidisciplinary artist based in Brooklyn, NY. She uses interactive installation, augmented reality, and bio design to create large-scale exhibitions that connect science and society. She recently had a solo exhibition, Connective Tissue, at the Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art in Nevada and is currently working on a multi-city public art series, called Findings, celebrating women and science. 

I spoke with Amanda about her recent exhibition, her advice for doing community-based art projects, and how she transitioned to being a full-time artist. Enjoy!

Read the full transcript here.

This interview was recorded in May 2020.

LINKS

Guest | Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya, Artist

Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya is an internationally recognized artist whose multidisciplinary practice uses interactive installation, augmented reality, and biodesign to bring science and society closer together. She is the founder of several large-scale collaborative initiatives, including The Leading Strand, which pairs scientists and designers to co-create works of art that translate scientific research; ATOMIC by Design, a science-positive fashion line and afterschool science & maker club for girls; and Beyond Curie, a dynamic portrait series of pioneering women scientists and mathematicians. Last year, she opened her solo exhibition of collected works at the Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art, for which she received Special Congressional Recognition for the “use of art, technology and science to bring society closer together” from Congresswoman Susie Lee. And she most recently exhibited Community of Microbes at the Cooper Union in NYC. Her work has been recognized by Fast Company, NBC, and the New York Times. -- via Connective/Tissue

Follow Amanda on Instagram (@alonglastname #alonglastname), check out her website, and find her on Twitter, Facebook, and Linkedin.

Your Host | Stephanie Echeveste, CEO & Founder of Distill Creative

Stephanie Echeveste is an artist and art consultant based in Brooklyn, NYC.
Follow Stephanie on Instagram (@distillcreative or @stephanie_eche), Twitter (@stephanie_eche), YouTube (Distill Creative), LinkedIn, and check out her art website.

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  • Stephanie Echeveste  00:02

    Welcome to First Coat. Where we explore public realm art, how it's made and why it matters. I'm your host Stephanie Echeveste, an artist and entrepreneur based in Brooklyn, New York. I run Distill Creative, where I curate and produce site specific art projects for real estate developers. This week on First Coat we have Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya. Amanda is a multidisciplinary artist based in Brooklyn, New York. She uses interactive installation, augmented reality and bio design to create large scale exhibitions that connect science and society. She recently had a solo exhibition, “Connective Tissue” at the Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art in Nevada, and is currently working on a multi city public art series called FINDINGS, celebrating women and science. I spoke with Amanda about her recent exhibition, her advice for doing community based art and how she transitioned to being a full time artist. Here's our conversation.

    Stephanie Echeveste  00:53

    I'm so excited to talk to you. Welcome to First Coat. Would you like to introduce yourself?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  00:58

    I'm Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya. I’ll just repeat that last name. It's Phingbodhipakkiya. I'm Thai, so that's why I have a 17 letter long last name. I am a multidisciplinary artist. I know folks call themselves, you know, many different things these days, like transdisciplinary, or there's so many ways to say it, but I do a lot of things and a lot of mediums, and a lot of my work sits at the intersection of science and technology and design and art and feminism. Yay!

    Stephanie Echeveste  01:28

    Yay! I've been seeing your projects and just, I've been really blown away by the work you've been doing. And not just the actual finished product of it, but I think the process that you go through with all of your projects and how different but also very similar they are. And as an artist, myself, I'm just fascinated how you can do so many different types of projects in different places with different people, and I wanted to know if you could talk a little bit about how did last year happen and what do you think you had set as a foundation for all of those projects to happen? And also, looking back, and especially in the time we are in now, how do you want to move forward with your work?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  02:06

    That is a multi faceted question. I'll try to tackle the first piece. So how did things ladder up for my projects last year to happen? I think everything that you do ladders on itself and just kind of builds. So for me, I'm just a very open person in terms of opportunities and people. Interestingly enough, one of my biggest exhibitions, so a solo exhibition that covered 4,800 square feet, it was like 15 murals and 10 new interactive works. That actually happened because in 2017, I did a project called Beyond Curie. And it's a portrait series featuring these collaged imagery, just bright, colorful scientific images of inspiring women in STEM to kind of honor their legacy and show young women of color that they belong in the science space. And I'm a big believer in using art to move people to action, or to help people reconsider or rethink preconceived notions. I created this project, it was actually just a website that I did. It was completely digital, I put it out there, was lucky enough that Fast Company covered it and it just got a lot of reach.

    Stephanie Echeveste  03:20

    Was this a personal project?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  03:22

    This was not for anybody. It was a personal project, I just really believed in it. It was after the 2016 election, and I was like, I gotta do something, but what can I do that utilizes my skills and my background and sort of my perspective in a unique way. So that's kind of what I settled on. And it's still ongoing, which I'm very happy about. But yeah, so the student group at the University of Las Vegas contacted me and they asked me to come out and speak to them about my kind of crazy, windy background from neuroscience into art and kind of how I blend the two and continue to work in both spaces without taking away from either one. I went out there and it was lovely to meet these inspiring young women and I was just so impressed with everything that they put together. So I was expecting to go into a classroom and be like, ‘hey’, you know, ‘this is what I do. Let me just show some slides. Okay, cool. Thank you so much for having me. Let's kind of have a roundtable’. But they actually, they booked out the museum that I ended up exhibiting in and I met the executive director who came to the talk and so many people came and I was just very impressed by the event that they put together and just the thought and the care, and really the vision that they had for jumpstarting this club called Scientistas that they had established a chapter for and yeah, that's kind of how that first connection was made. And you know, nothing really happened for some time, which is often kind of how things go. But when I took over the east wing of the Museum of Natural Sciences with the Beyond Curie series that had grown to I think 35 or 40, portraits of women in STEM, and then now had an AR component that allowed you to see kind of animations on top. The executive director reached back out and she was like, ‘hey, have you ever thought of perhaps exhibiting with us?’ And I was like, ‘no, but yes, I would love to do that’. So it went from, you know, just sort of crickets and nothing to a potential opportunity and even then, things weren't set in stone. But I was out in Vegas for a wedding, a friend's wedding, and I decided to just pop in and see the space and say hello, and you know, see if we could talk logistics because at that point, still nothing was kind of set in stone. But then I sort of started just, you know, ideating on the spot, and I think she was very moved by it. But even then I was still supposed to share the space with someone else. But then two or three months later, she calls me and says, ‘oh, actually, we had to drop the other artist. Would you be okay doing a solo show? And more than that, would you be okay, moving your timeline up by a year’. So I was actually supposed to do that this year.

    Stephanie Echeveste  06:24

    Oh, wow.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  06:25

    Yeah. But you know, I'm slightly deranged when I kind of lock onto a creative project so I was like, ‘yeah, sure! No problem. I can do it’. So, that's sort of how it happened. But I feel that a lot of my projects kind of stem from this sort of chaotic mix of things where I'm not really sure what's going to happen, and I sort of love that about my practice. And I think that's why you kind of see lots of permutations of things in lots of different spaces, because you just never know when an opportunity could crop up or you could create one for yourself. Back to your earlier question about, you know, was Beyond Curie a personal project? Yeah, it absolutely was, and I'm a big believer in how personal projects or you know, work that you believe in whether or not it was commissioned, or someone asked you to do it, you should still do it because it's a part of yourself that you want to put out into the world or some idea that you believe is important, and I think that that passion, that fire, that love comes through for folks who see it, and you just never know who might see your work.

    Stephanie Echeveste  07:38

    That's such great advice, especially in this uncertain time. I keep hearing like ‘here are all these things that you could do with your time’ and I think it's a little bit overwhelming, particularly for creatives, like I need to come out with this project, but maybe if we just focused on the things that are interesting to us, and then did them instead of being distracted by a lot of things. How do you I guess oscillate between the curiosity and then the focus of, I'm going to do this project and I'm going to see it through?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  08:08

    That's a great question. I think last year was definitely an execution year. So it was that huge project in conjunction with community microbes at the Cooper Union and just balancing the two, just the creative and the tech pieces of all of them. It was just a lot because writing parallel tracks, I'm prototyping the tech and also kind of iterating on the design and making sure we tested so that A. it would work but it would still look nice and could withstand children just like ‘aahh’. Kind of trying to tear them apart was definitely a challenge. So I don't think I did that much experimentation, to say, last year. I think within the scope of a project, I certainly still try to kind of expand what I am trying to do and kind of hone back in once I do some exploration, but I think certainly this year, well, in part because we're all quarantined, I've had a little bit more time to just truly experiment, experiment without the pressure to create something that's good. I think that's something that we all struggle with as creatives, it's like, I think sometimes when there's too much pressure to create something that is good, whatever good means visually pleasing, impactful, whatever it is, however you define good, it kind of limits your exploration. So there's just lots of failed things sitting around my apartment right now. But I think that's sort of where you find the seeds of inspiration for the next thing that you might do. And it's like this cross fermentation of different techniques, maybe new ones that you learn kind of merged with old ones that create something very interesting.

    Stephanie Echeveste  09:59

    I think what's really interesting, what you said is that you find ways to still experiment within a project.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  10:06

    I think that's important, mostly because I try to- I guess I'm very grateful to be able to take projects that are very open and to work with people who value my artistic vision, and my strategic vision for things. And I think that in part comes from the way I often work with folks, you know, obviously, I'll apply to things and you know, we send 1,000 arrows out and see what comes back and whatever comes back cool. I think I've just gotten into the practice of very much creating opportunities for myself, mostly because I'm kind of a weird, hybrid, odd bird kind of creative. And I have this weird background in neuroscience, you know, I worked in technology. It's a huge part of my work, but I'm not really exactly part of the art and tech movement. What I do is a little bit more community based, as well. So there are lots of different pieces. And oftentimes, as creatives we're told, you know, focus on one so that that can be your thing and that can be very marketable for you. But I've actually found, at least for myself, personally, kind of, doing lots of work in lots of different spaces has actually kind of netted me the most opportunities and the most rewarding ones, as well. The first time I started creating work in this space where there wasn't anything was when I did something called the TED residency. And even then, I don't think I had kind of emerged into my full potential of experimentation and really standing behind my work. It was still very much trying to foster creativity and collaboration between artists and scientists, trying to do it for others. I was still creating, creative directing the whole thing and kind of putting up these exhibitions but honestly, I think I was a little scared to do it myself or put my full weight behind my artistic vision. But, you know, since then, obviously, I've done a lot of work in this space. And it's been incredibly rewarding to do that. But with regards to public art, the first time I did a mural, I just, it wasn't even ‘I want to make a mural’, that wasn't what I was thinking. I had met this woman through TED, who runs a nonprofit in Atlanta, my hometown and where my parents still are, that supports homeless youth through the arts, and I really wanted to kind of encourage the kids in her program to, I guess, develop a vision through doing and kind of give them something tangible to create a bright spot in their city. Because I know as a child who was bullied a lot, that manifestation of something in your mind to kind of seeing it out in the world is hugely confidence building. So I thought this would be, I guess, a growth and rewarding exercise for them. I actually didn't know what we were going to make going in. But I ran a bunch of design thinking exercises with them, kind of got them to talk to me, which was hard because, well, like ‘who’s this strange person? Go away’. But, you know, it's sort of like I've had so many people not give up on me, I certainly didn't want to give up on them. So we got to a point where, you know, we were able to kind of find some common ground and I love that you can see parts of them in the mural itself. And I think that was my favorite part to kind of get them to express themselves in a way that they could translate up on this big wall. And, yeah, that wall we got completely by chance and it just happened to be in such a wonderful spot because our original wall fell through. So yeah, I was actually in Boston before I was, you know, planning to fly down to Atlanta to do the project and then I got a call from the group that was procuring walls for us and they said, ‘oh, sorry, but your wall fell through’. And then they just gave me a list of real estate companies to call. So then I called every single one, and I was like, ‘hi, so in a week, I need a big wall. What do you think? And I'm working with this nonprofit, let's not let the kids down’. So fortunately, you know, this wall came through and I didn't even know how big it was. So I had to readjust the design for the wall and it was like a whole learning experience for everyone. But I think at the end of every big mural, you are exhausted, you're frustrated by the things that went wrong, but ultimately, you’ve created something with an amazing community and you only remember most of the good stuff.

    Stephanie Echeveste  15:05

    Do you have any tips for other artists who maybe aren't doing community based work or aren't incorporating the community into their project, whether that's a mural or some other type of public art project? And how they might get over that hurdle or start learning about the community and actually involving the community in the work?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  15:24

    Well, I mean, I think there are many reasons to not, obviously, there's the funding issue, there's the access issue, and there's, it's just harder to collaborate with more people and involve more people and that also means you have more stakeholders, and your original stakeholder might not agree with, you know, your community stakeholders. But I would say that it still comes from this idea of what's your vision for how public art can serve as a placemaking tool for community and you know, obviously, it helps to have a personal connect. But beyond that, I think people are surprised by the number of cold emails that get answered, the power of the cold email is strong, especially if you lay out why you want to work with this organization and how your art can really become sort of a way to open dialogue.

    Stephanie Echeveste  16:20

    One of the things I'm hearing and this is finding an organization that you can actually work with, whether it's a community, some kind of point person that can kind of help you connect with a specific community, or are there other ways?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  16:31

    You could be the point person that connects with a specific community. I think it just, it matters what the scope you're envisioning is. So if you want to have like a big paint day, obviously it's helpful to have some, you know, logistical support and community buy in and support and it's a bit hard to organize that if you're, just one person, it's certainly doable, but you're also the one who has to paint and show people what the design is and how to paint. I think there are many ways, but I think just not underestimating the amount of support that you need on a mural project is crucial or any community based project. Yeah, at the end of the day, it's sort of like, when you involve a community, it becomes about them and not about you, and that's why I think a lot of artists don't involve community groups because they just want to put their, you know, personal expression out there, and that is 100% okay and wonderful. And lots of sleepy lots have been transformed by that very way of working. But just having- going in with the understanding that, you know, even if you want something to be a certain way, you have to listen, and it's not about you anymore. And I think that's the biggest hurdle, honestly, is- especially if you're working from a perspective of I just want to put my vision out there to then shift in your mindset to, actually I'm here to listen and I'm here to transmute the spirit of this community into something beautiful and uplifting, that's a whole mind shift. So, just making sure that you're okay with that, and you know, you're committed to that is probably the best advice I can give.

    Stephanie Echeveste  18:09

    How do you feel about work that is, particularly in areas that are going through gentrification or have been gentrified, where they are simply an artist's vision on the wall, may or may not been commissioned by a local developer or a business or the business improvement district, but they're clearly not involving or didn't involve the community in any way. Do you think that changes depending on the environment that the piece is in?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  18:35

    I think gentrification is going to happen and because artists are struggling, it's going to be very hard for them to turn down work like that, and especially if it's sort of an opportunity to get their practice off the ground. I don't fault them at all for taking work like that. I think, you know, as long as we make a concerted effort to make sure that our work isn't negatively impacting a community, I think that is a good first step. And yeah, I mean, there's nothing better than creating work that's beloved by a community, because they'll fight for that work and protect it, even if the building is going to be torn down. So it's sort of like, it's in an artist's best interest to get community buy in, in my opinion.

    Stephanie Echeveste  19:17

    Whether or not they actually are involved in the creation of the work. Right.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  19:21

    Yeah, right. But again, that's hard. That takes more work and I understand if there's, if it's not done.

    Stephanie Echeveste  19:27

    Yeah, no, I think every situation is a little bit different.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  19:31

    Absolutely.

    Stephanie Echeveste  19:32

    And I definitely think there are instances where someone is using art to kind of trick a community into something which is terrifying, but I think it happens quite often where it's like now this is a cool hip place to be and we've all- but you don't know all the things that happened to actually get these apartments up or get this area to feel really cool and nice and I think I very much struggle with that. Not so much, I mean, I totally agree with you. I want artists to get paid, and I particularly want women and people of color who make art to get paid.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  20:06

    Absolutely.

    Stephanie Echeveste  20:07

    And I've just like, we're in capitalism, I want to make money, I want them to make money. I want us all to be able to work.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  20:13

    I want everyone to win, but that is not possible.

    Stephanie Echeveste  20:17

    Right. And so it's being conscious of what might- like the history of the place is simply sometimes all you need to do to learn what the background is of that project.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  20:27

    Right. And I think just simply having conversations with folks in the community can, you know, even if they don't participate in the creation of the work, at least it informs contextually what you decide to put up there and, you know, it's not hard to have a conversation or two, it's just about making the time and putting the effort in to even try.

    Stephanie Echeveste  20:47

    Mm hmm. Yeah, spending time in the place and talking to people. Pretty, pretty basic things. But yeah, I really like that. I wanted to learn a bit about how you think about your projects, both as physical things, and also, I feel like everything you do, or at least maybe in the last few years, you have artwork in a physical space, things that can be interacted with by people who come to either see it or walk by it or whatever, and then this digital experience, whether it's literally on top of the work with the work or just online, separate from the work. It's really impressive, because I think you've really thought through that user experience of, sure the exhibit may end or people might not be able to actually physically go see it anymore, but you can still engage with it online. So can you talk a little bit more about why you do that? And how you plan that into your process?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  21:40

    Sure, absolutely. So I think the reason why I do it is because I think everyone should have access to good art and technology has democratized art in a really wonderful way, especially if you put the effort in to do that, to democratize it, and I always do because I know how hard it can be to make it to a certain place. You know, you might not even have the means to get to a certain place and who am I to deprive you of art that could change your life? Not to say that my art will change your life necessarily, but anyone's art, really. I think more and more institutions and organizations should try to use technology to kind of expand the reach of the work that they show. So, from the beginning, I'm very, I'm very intentional about how this ecosystem works. I think interactivity is very important to me, because oftentimes, I'll do user research and ask folks, you know, when you go to the Met, or when you go to a museum, what do you get out of it? And I was actually surprised to learn that most people aren't sure what they're supposed to get out of it. And they are bothered that they can't interact with anything. I mean, museums are changing, so this isn't always the case anymore, but oftentimes, people are just sort of itching to interact because they are inspired and I think as creatives, as artists, it's very nice to be able to design a system where you're supposed to interact and through that interaction, you learn something about yourself and about others. I think that's the most beautiful ecosystem to create where, through, you know, touching and through interacting with the work, you gain something tangible that you can take away with. A lot of the work in my Connective Tissue exhibition was about what can be achieved together. So a lot of the work, it just didn't work properly until you got four other people to do it with you, or it just didn't light up until everyone was sitting down together, and then you've got this, wonderful aura around you. And I think that's sort of like a metaphor for how we come together to create impact. It's like you can have some sort of small local impact, and that's great, but you can achieve much more when you do it together and align on values and a mission. That's kind of one piece where I think through the ecosystem of, what is this piece going to be? And how do people interact with it to achieve a certain outcome? But in terms of the interactivity piece, I think, I use AR a lot because it's sort of like the most accessible kind of technology, in my opinion, that can add depth and layers of information on top of what you already see with the naked eye, and it parallels in many ways to kind of looking under a microscope. In many ways AR can be like your handheld microscope and who doesn't have a phone? I mean, people don't have phones, obviously. But most folks have phones, know how to use them, and you know, there have been many times where I've just provided phones for folks who don't have them. It's amazing to see their reactions to things appearing out of thin air. It's like magic. And, you know, if I can evoke this sense of wonder, I want to do more of that because I think you get such a hit of dopamine when you are delighted by something. If my work can do that, then I'm going to probably inspire you to think more deeply about the sort of context of the work that I've presented. And you know, maybe I will hopefully have you reinterpret how you kind of walk through the world. So that's why I do this kind of work and what I enjoy most about it.

    Stephanie Echeveste  25:21

    How do you project manage all of that?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  25:23

    Oh I am so disorganized. I'm terrible, actually, real talk. I bring on partners who are very organized, but I think understanding your strengths and knowing how you work best. I work best in a chaotic mess, because oftentimes, I'm taking things that are totally unrelated and mashing them together and creating something new. So that's kind of like I need a lot of things everywhere to be able to do the mashing. But then, having accountability partners tell you, let's do a Gantt chart for how we do things and, you know, it helps to- I've gotten better over the years because I'm often doing a lot of projects in parallel. And the projects keep on getting bigger, so, and then the funding keeps on getting bigger. So, then now I'm more accountable to the funding partners. So I've gotten more into spreadsheets, gotten more into Google Docs, gotten more into all of the organizational tools. But you know, I still feel the struggle of it. But ultimately, I think this comes from my creative director designer days, I'm just very deadline driven. My husband will tell me ‘it's amazing how if a deadline is tomorrow, you can funnel like three months work into one day’. Yes, that is so interesting.

    Stephanie Echeveste  26:50

    Do you set deadlines for personal projects?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  26:53

    Yes. That's the only way they get done. I just know I'm very deadline driven, but obviously, you know, things come up and you're like, oh, I was gonna do it by Friday, it's like three weeks later, and you're like, but I didn't do it, so I feel bad. I think there are pros and cons to being so deadline driven. I think being not on a deadline kind of allows you to experiment more. But at the same time, I think I'm more driven, especially when I'm in the experimental flow state to finish what I started. So complete the vision, and see how I feel at the end, because I know it's an experiment, I know it's a prototype, so it doesn't have to be perfect, per se. It just has to kind of give me a sense of if whatever I'm doing here is working. Yeah, and I think that's sort of enough to move it along. Obviously, when you're balancing personal work and project work, and especially as artists we don't know, when things are going to come up, we apply for things like a year in advance and it's like, oh, I guess I'm doing that now, okay. And I feel very grateful that a lot of my projects come inbound as well. Which I know is not the case for a lot of artists, especially artists starting out, so I think for artists starting out, you know, funnel your energy into those personal projects, make them really, really good, and oftentimes people want to see what you can do before they put that trust in you to do something for them. I don't necessarily agree with that way of thinking. I've certainly taken on interns and given people opportunities that, you know, I haven't really seen what I want from them in their portfolio, but I know they can do it, because I like the way that they think and how they approach the work and how thoughtful they are. So I'm just conscious about giving folks opportunities just for the way they think, instead of, what I see in their portfolio. And I hope more people do that, but I know that's not the norm. Doing personal work can be a way to show that you can actually do what you want to be doing for money for someone else and bigger.

    Stephanie Echeveste  28:53

    Why do you think science and art are often separated or pitted against each other as two different arenas?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  29:01

    I think somewhere along the lines of history, they got separated. And everyone is so siloed and kind of protective over their fiefdom that sometimes there's a bit of a, sort of a war between the two in terms of like, what's more important, what's more cerebral? What's more this or that, or I think throughout history, artists have always required patrons of some kind. And usually those patrons are wealthy people, and I think at least fine art in many respects has developed and implemented into a world of its own that is, in fact, kind of, in many ways kept in the dark ages due to this dependency on the wealthy. But this isn't really exactly an answer to your question, but I think at the end of the day, there are too many similarities between the two to totally see them as separate. I find that oftentimes the most brilliant scientists are the most creative ones, they may even be artists and the most thoughtful artists often have an analytical mind, and they do think about science because it's mixing of materials, how do you create this certain texture? How do you create this finish? That's science. And it's, it's sort of just not celebrated in a way. It's like we, in our education we've just been, we've broken it down into too many disparate parts. When in reality, and in the world, everything is sort of woven together. But, for some reason, our education system is broken down into these silos of like, okay, if you're going to study art, then you go to art school, and you do these things. But, you know, in art school, you use scientific processes, they're just not taught as so and in science it’s, it's not about you know, how many things you can memorize. It's about what creative ways can I take from the many different inspirations that I've come across and peer review to bring them together to see, oh, maybe there is something I missed that I measured something after something else happened and what does that mean? And I think artists often are working in this way where it's like, oh, I created this texture, but how? And then I'm trying to replicate that and it’s sort of like a series of tests, which is completely scientific, that's essentially the scientific method.

    Stephanie Echeveste  31:04

    This color, the color in this painting. How do you make this over and over again, or make it different or slightly lighter, darker, whatever.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  31:14

    Right, or how do I create this visual effect, which is neuroscience. It's like, you know, like this moiré pattern, why does it kind of trick your eye in this way? Or like if I tried to make something bigger, if I paint it in a bright color, that’s neuroscience, you know. I've always said that, I feel like artists are just really good mathematicians and scientists, because it's like you innately have this sense. You just don't know you're doing it, it's like you're doing it in your sleep almost, in this flow state of  you just see and then you do, you aren't analyzing all the little bits and pieces because it just comes naturally. And if you were to analyze all those bits and pieces, you would just see all this math and science kind of flow out.

    Stephanie Echeveste  31:53

    I like that explanation, thank you. Your work deals with the universal, the microscopic, and the personal all together in different ways. How does your personal identity play into your work? And does that change based on what you're working on or where the project is?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  32:09

    That’s a great question. I think by now you probably know that all my work is very colorful, and that comes from just growing up in the kitchens of my dad's restaurant. You know, it's like, Thai, Thai food, Thai culture, Thai fashion is just very colorful. There's greens and golds, and reds and blues and everything is singing in color and just being around that made me love and embrace color and the feeling that it could give others. So I think in many ways, I often bring  that piece of my identity into my work because I know that to help folks accept something that is more complex or difficult to understand, you need something that's easy for them to understand or universal. And my dad, in the restaurant, he basically introduced the greater Atlanta area to Thai food, he's responsible for that which I'm super proud of, but you know, he would do it in a way that was so friendly and he would make jokes about the names of dishes so that people would laugh. So his name is Tom and he would joke around that tom yam or tom yum was his special soup and people would suddenly be like, ‘okay, you know what, Tom, if it's your soup, I will try it’, you know.

    Stephanie Echeveste  33:18

    That’s so funny.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  33:20

    Exactly! And they did. And I don't know, I was just, I think, a lot of people are moved by experiences like that. And I tried to do the same thing, but for science, or for, you know, familial memories or for, you know, microscopic worlds because I think all you need is something you can hold on to before you jump in. And then once you do, it's sort of like this whole world is opened up to you and introducing folks to new worlds is very exciting for me.

    Stephanie Echeveste  33:50

    Do you read science fiction?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  33:51

    I do. Yeah.

    Stephanie Echeveste  33:53

    Do you have any favorite books or authors?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  33:55

    I recently read the Artemis series. I'll send it to you later.

    Stephanie Echeveste  33:59

    We’ll put it in the show notes.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  34:00

    Yeah, I think recently though, I've been more drawn to historical fiction. I mean, I guess I don't even know what to call these. I guess, It's like a mix of historical fiction with technology as well, but I'll send you some books.

    Stephanie Echeveste  34:17

    Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to put them in the show notes. You said introducing people to other worlds and I immediately thought of like the worlds of Ursula K. Le Guin or Octavia Butler and these imagined futures that may or may not be our futures, or may or may not be this universe.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  34:34

    I love a good dystopian future novel. Even though it's terrifying at the same time, I'm just like, you know what? This is too much of a page turner. It’s like 4 a.m. and I’m still reading.

    Stephanie Echeveste  34:48

    I'm in a dystopian short story club with my friends right now. Which is like the best and worst thing to be doing right now. I mean, we’re obviously doing it because of COVID-19, but it's just like,

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  35:02

    Too real.

    Stephanie Echeveste  35:02

    Yeah, it’s painfully so real but also very cathartic at the same time. So, yeah. How do you make money? And how has this changed over time?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  35:13

    Interesting question. So, as you know, I was a creative director, art director, designer, so I kind of lived in that world for a while. And then I became a design strategist. Well, because it made more money and I needed money. But then I quickly realized that I didn't agree with the way the company was, frankly, treating their customers. What I was seeing out in the world when I was doing my user research was totally incompatible with the way they were approaching their sort of, customer persona. So I was very much disappointed in that, because what I was finding was that there are all these unbanked folks in areas where they can't get to a branch and, you know, they are folks, typically folks of color who predominantly are in a cash economy, and, you know, we aren't really helping them with that, in case you can't tell I worked for a bank. So I quit. Mostly because I raised these concerns, and they were like, ‘no, we don't care about that, we only care about, like, a very specific kind of customer’. And I was like, that's really terrible, I don't agree with this, bye. So I was a little bit thrown into the deep end after that, because I obviously quit on, on principle, and I didn't have something immediately lined up. I thought I did, but this foundation that I was trying to get funding from somehow it just didn't work in the end. And it was supposed to kind of set me up and I was like, oh, god, this is terrible. But fortunately, I was able to pick up some design gigs here and there, and I think over the years, I've built up a bit of a network to kind of do brand work for folks. So, that's kind of how I started to support myself.

    Stephanie Echeveste  35:53

    Mhmm, have some stability, financially.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  37:06

    Right. But now I make all my money doing art, which I'm really grateful for. It's a mix of establishing partnerships with nonprofit orgs, and also getting commissioned to do work. I work with amplifier art a lot. They're a really wonderful organization. I'm sure you've heard of them. I'm working on a campaign for them right now that I can't talk about yet, but I'm really excited for it to come out. Yeah, I think what's kind of tough sometimes is, especially with getting paid for art, you're often not allowed to share what you're working on until it's ready and especially the more established the institution is or the more established the opportunity is there’s PR constraints where you can't just share like it's your personal work. So I think what we see on, let's say, social media may not actually reflect what's going on in an artist’s life and just remembering that. You know, whether you have the reaction, ‘oh, this person's doing so much’ or ‘this person's not doing anything’, just kind of remembering that is important. Because people take all kinds of projects and different partners have different guidelines for how things can be shared. So just keeping that in mind is helpful. Instagram can be very uplifting, and it can also kind of be damaging to self esteem. So just kind of keeping a good head about that is always good practice.

    Stephanie Echeveste  38:32

    It's so weird, because it's like what you always or maybe what I dreamt of being able to do, seeing the life of this artist doing the type of work I want to do, but knowing that it's not necessarily not true, but it's not necessarily true and it's definitely not real time.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  38:41

    It’s a version of truth.

    Stephanie Echeveste  38:55

    Yeah, it's a version of truth. It's a branded thing to some extent, even if the person is conscious of it or not. And it's not really what's actually happening that day or that hour or whatever.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  39:08

    Yeah, I think it's important to remember that we all struggle in different ways and to different degrees. And assuming that the artist in question is having the best time of their life may not actually be true, and just keeping that in mind when you look at their work is helpful, especially if you're having a particularly bad time.

    Stephanie Echeveste  39:30

    How do you approach using social media with that perspective? Do you schedule your posts? Do you just post when you feel like it?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  39:38

    I don't, I'm really not a social media animal at all. I think it's important as a creative to engage with the outside world, of course, but I'm an introverted person. I’m not, you know, sharing every little bit of my day, but, I do enjoy it from time to time. I don't have any specific method or schedule that I keep, but I think what I enjoy sharing most is actually work in progress or experiments, you know, with mixed results, obviously. I think sometimes with social media, it can be challenging to explore new things, because the audience that you've built up is used to seeing a certain kind of content and that's what they like. Kind of not letting social media dictate what you do, or why you do it too much is important to keep top-of-mind because ultimately, it's your practice and it's what you want to do, and if this particular audience won't let you grow, maybe they're the wrong one.

    Stephanie Echeveste  40:38

    I think on the flip side of that, though, when I'm doing research, and I'm looking up artists, I always look at their website, and I check their social media to just kind of see what they might be working on or thinking about or whatever.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  40:49

    Absolutely.

    Stephanie Echeveste  40:50

    But it really, really bothers me when an artist doesn't have an updated website, and so I just have no idea where their work is. Like you obviously, you have a great website, you've well documented your work, I can get a sense of where you've been, where you are, where you’re going.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  41:07

    It’s okay, it could be better, but thank you.

    Stephanie Echeveste  41:08

    But, you have things that are at least up to date with, you know, this past year, you know, we can see recent work, whereas sometimes I'll see an artist and I, and I really think that, I know they can do the project, but then there's, you never want to reach out to an artist and ask them to do something that they're not doing anymore that they don't want to do, right? Or that might seem very out of bounds to what they were doing. And there's a weird, it's hard for me because I believe in a lot of people so much, and I'm like, I know you can do this thing but I also would never want to ask you to do this thing that is outside of your wheelhouse, because that just makes everyone feel uncomfortable. But it's hard to know what someone's doing if they're just, there's no place where they're putting the work that they want to be doing or the work that they are most proud of and I think that's where Instagram becomes very... 

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  41:52

    I think that’s just, like, 101. Right?

    Stephanie Echeveste  41:54

    Right. I just wish more artists put time into their websites and not just Instagram. 

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  42:00

    No, I agree. I think a website is definitely, at least from my experience, a website is far more concrete than Instagram. At least how I use Instagram is sort of like day to day what I'm working on, obviously, I'll sort of bring you along the journey if I'm working on big projects, but there are a lot of things I can't share. There's so many exciting things that I can't share at this moment in time, and I would love to, but I'll share them when they launch. So then I just share experiments and stuff and new stuff I'm exploring, but your website, yeah, put your top hits on there. Why not? It’s how people find you these days.

    Stephanie Echeveste  42:37

    I'm really loving your textile experiments that you've been doing.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  42:40

    Oh cool! I’m glad.

    Stephanie Echeveste  42:41

    Yeah, and I see something- is what's on the wall behind you something new?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  42:46

    Oh, yeah, I did this for this particular month, to be a little bit about anti Asian sentiment. I still have to do the last bit on it, which is projection mapping with a bunch of words that friends and my community have shared with me about what they've experienced or what they want to say. So I still need to do that piece, but yeah, one day I was like, you know, what if I just put these two things together? Let's see what happens and I just have random boards and stuff around the house. So I- I use a lot of recycled materials when I'm experimenting. Yeah, I started down this path of inquiry because I had this commission come from a big hospitality group, an entertainment group. That project has since been pushed back for obvious reasons. But I had pitched these- this big series of self sculptures about membrane proteins and how they can represent archetypes of women, badass women, so fingers crossed that I actually get to bring this to fruition but you know, we'll see. I think everything is very much up in the air for many folks right now. So I empathize.

    Stephanie Echeveste  43:54

    Yeah, I loved seeing your soft sculpture work because that's, that's what I've been into lately and the way in which it was like ‘not just this, but then this and then this and then layers and then that, now your projection mapping on it’, I'm like ah! But it's really cool to see, thank you for sharing the things you are working on because I think it's exciting for other people to see that whether or not it's like a linear process or whether or not it goes to- whatever it may be or may not be, it's just fun to see other people trying different things, and then how far they get to in that new medium is really interesting.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  44:30

    I think it's great if the work I put up inspires people to experiment too because I think we all need more of that. I think sometimes we're stuck in a style because that's what we get paid for, and that's what people know us for doing, but it doesn't mean that’s it. You know, obviously it takes time and creating work in that different style to kind of have that style take hold for you. But, you know, there's no reason why you need to stick to, at least in my opinion, stick to one thing.

    Stephanie Echeveste  45:00

    Yeah, I’ve been doing more work on paper lately.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  45:03

    That's awesome.

    Stephanie Echeveste  45:04

    I'm not traditionally trained. I took my first drawing class this year, you know, it's just like a,

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  45:08

    I love it.

    Stephanie Echeveste  45:08

    From a making background, you know? And it's like, oh, wait, I can actually do this, and it's maybe not my- it's not as good as I would like it to be yet, but it is going somewhere, and that's been something fun to try out.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  45:20

    I think process and progress are both important. And I think the more you can fill a toolbox, the more you're able to envision for future projects. Because oftentimes, it's, at least for me, I will run into, you know, a creative problem, and I'll say to myself, ‘oh, it'd be great if I could do this, but I don't know how’. And you know, it's within a timeline that I couldn't possibly learn, right? But if you take the time to just learn these new technologies or whatnot, then when it's time to actually create something, it can fit within your project scope and your vision. It's part of the reason why I decided to get into projection mapping. Now, I actually have a commission for it, but I just was interested in the technology for its capacity to almost like, it's like a night and day sculpture or a night and day experience in a way, because you can create something that looks beautiful in the daytime, and then at night, it completely transforms and you're able to kind of use that as a surface to present more information or more visuals or whatever it is, and I think that's so cool. The transformation of something that seems like you couldn't transform before. And I think that just expands the scope and the impact of any one singular thing that you can do, and that possibility is super cool.

    Stephanie Echeveste  46:36

    Yeah, it’s super interesting, the depth that you can add to a piece becomes almost infinite. And then with the digital aspect.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  46:42

    Yeah, I mean, what’s so cool about projection mapping is it sort of molds to whatever surface you wish and you can control that within the software, and that is really cool. So the block sculpture thing that I did, I was like okay, I got to finish this so I can try the projection mapping on it. Pretty difficult in our apartment, there isn't much room but, you know.

    Stephanie Echeveste  47:06

    How do you- so, that was a question I actually had for you is how do you teach yourself different things?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  47:12

    Hmm. That’s an interesting question. I think I've always been known for learning things quickly. So I certainly don't take for granted that I just couldn't grasp things without too much of a learning curve. But I think, honestly, it comes from this idea that I'll just figure it out where it's like, I'll try different things, and you know, I'm also a very impatient person. So I think I will sort of work on it until I get it right. But recently, I've just been more in the mindset of, you know, it's okay to take your time and not put so much pressure on yourself to complete everything in one day. So I think a tiered approach is very good for the mind and the soul.

    Stephanie Echeveste  47:54

    Do you Google things? Or are you watching videos on YouTube?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  47:57

    I just read the directions. I don't know, this is a terrible answer. I'm so sorry. But I think for me, I'm very vision first where it's like, I'll sketch something out and here's what I want it to look like, but I'm also sort of like opinions strongly held, but easily let go. So it's like, I think it'll look this way, I think it'll be cool, but  every step along the process, I'm learning new things about the material or how I attach it to the wall, so I'll have to adjust. And I think what helps me learn fast is my adaptability, because I know there are so many ways to do any one thing, and I'm not tied to one particular way. And I lean into my strengths of if I'm good at doing it this way, then who's to say that I have to do it another way. So I think that helps kind of move things along. And oftentimes, I'll just, let's try to get it working at its base level first, and then you can sort of like work backwards and make it look better. So I think that way of learning a new thing is helpful of like, okay, what's the minimum viable product? And can I get it to work? And this very sometimes sad looking version- it’s a very design way of thinking of like, okay, what's this base level prototype? It looks like shit, but I did it and it sort of functions and then iterating on like, oh, okay, so I can shave this bit off or I can round this out and that can make it better. That's how I work digitally too, it's like, what are the main shapes and then- people always ask me when I illustrate how I do it, do I use a pen tool or do I use procreate, I just trackpad everything with my finger. My trackpad is super sensitive, and I just draw shapes, that's how I do it. I think it grew out of this not wanting to buy equipment when I was really poor and just didn't want to buy equipment and now I'm just used to it. So, maybe I will switch over to procreate and use the Apple Pencil and use fancier things, but it's working okay for me right now.

    Stephanie Echeveste  48:54

    It seems like just continuing to do and troubleshooting.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  50:13

    Yeah, that's 100% it. I could never be an engineer, I think, because then your whole life is troubleshooting, creative troubleshooting. You have to really enjoy sort of picking up, like, if you have a big knot, just picking the knot apart and figuring out how everything works, and I'm too impatient for that. I just get frustrated too quickly. I'm just like, ‘oh, why isn't it working?’

    Stephanie Echeveste  50:38

    What tips do you have for working with institutions and organizations that aren't used to working with an artist?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  50:45

    Hmm, interesting question.

    Stephanie Echeveste  50:47

    And are there any specific tips on pitching a project or if they've come to you what you might need to explain to them about how you work?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  50:56

    Okay. So, I think, first things first, make sure you're aligned on vision and values. So, make sure- I think oftentimes, we expect others to see what we see in our mind's eye. So, being explicit about what you see in your mind's eye can be very helpful, just so that, you know, everyone is on the same page, because I certainly have done this before where I'm like, ‘yeah, you know, the thing like this, you know, don't you see it?’ And they're like, ‘yeah, we see it’. No, they didn't see it. Did not see it. I make a lot of decks just to lay out my vision for things, how it's beneficial for them, how it's beneficial for me, what the pricing is, the expected impact, all of these things are important for stakeholders to make their decisions. So having a really good deck can skip you 10 steps down the line to getting a partnership.

    Stephanie Echeveste  51:50

    That's such good advice, because I feel like that's also something, it’s something tangible that can be forwarded.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  51:55

    Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. 

    Stephanie Echeveste  51:56

    I feel like sometimes I get pitches or I don't know, it's like an email that has some notes or ideas or a thing, and it's like I literally cannot share this with anyone.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  52:06

    No, it’s got to be, it's got to be tight. It's got to be tight. Because no one has time to read like 400 pages. No, they want to know what it is, they want to know why it's good for them, and they want to know what this is going to do for the world.

    Stephanie Echeveste  52:19

    Have you spent time on personal branding? And has that changed, since you've kind of focused solely on art as the avenue through which you do your projects?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  52:30

    Interesting question. I think I'm still trying to understand what the answer is to that question. I think I'm grateful that I've been able to produce projects and do them in a way where it's easily shareable. So oftentimes, I'll let my work speak for me. And that's been very helpful, but I think to a certain extent, my personal brand keeps on expanding in a way. So at first it was like, how do I illustrate scientific concepts in a more beautiful and dynamic way? And then it expanded to how do I inspire wonder in more audiences? Then it expanded to how do I amplify the voices of certain communities in a way that inspires wonder to a broader audience? And, you know, I think the through line for all of my projects has always been science, technology, art, women, and whatever permutations that takes, they're broad enough where anything I do, I'm pretty competent, anything I do will kind of sit within these realms. I think more and more my work is encompassing identity and belonging, and the history of places and placemaking. So I think just finding a way to tell your story is important. And I've told my story in a lot of different ways. It's like, you watch my first TED talk, and then my second one, and I'm telling my story a different way, and it's fine, you know. And if I do another one, I'll probably tell it in a different way again. But I think it's also important to know that whatever piece of press or whatever kind of thing on the internet that you see about an artist is just a snapshot of them. I know a lot of people don't think that but I think it's important for artists to see others, other artists in this way to know that that's not all they are there. It's just like a snapshot for them. Obviously, artists run into the issue of you're branding me by my snapshot by people who might commission them or like institutions. So that's an issue. I think what has been very impactful for me, which has been, I know, this is not helpful, but it's been largely out of my control, is getting good press. You know, it's like, you can't totally control that. But it's been very helpful for me, because in many ways, it's sort of like if someone writes a piece about you almost solidifies your voice and your credibility. So it's like if NBC has written about this person, if Forbes and The New York Times, I guess they're legit, right? So when you're trying to get funding or partnerships, it's helpful just to kind of be out there. And, you know, oftentimes this is not within your control, so a bit of a toss up, but I think a lot of people believe that if your work is good enough, somebody will write about it. Not true. Completely not true. You just got to email a bunch of reporters and tell them why your work is awesome and why they should write about you. And every once in a while one of them will respond and you can work together on something really cool. But again, the power of the cold email.

    Stephanie Echeveste  55:37

    I think that's such good advice. It's something that I kind of forgot about, honestly, because I used to work- I used to do inbound marketing for an education technology company, and my job was cold emailing people to get them to write.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  55:51

    So then you are the best at this.

    Stephanie Echeveste  55:53

    And then when I transitioned to running my own company or focusing on art, I completely forgot about that as a thing. And now that I've gotten over the fear of being, kind of what you were saying, just committing to it, I'm like, oh my gosh, I've, I know how to do this, I've done it for far less important things in the past, you know?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  56:12

    Yeah.

    Stephanie Echeveste  56:13

    I think that's really good advice. staying focused, believing in your work, too, right?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  56:17

    I mean, it can be frustrating to not get responses, but the response rate is like, 20%, you know, so if you send out two emails, obviously, no, it's not going to happen for you, right? You know, but so send out more and someone will come back to you and maybe they say, ‘hey, you're really cool, and we'll keep you in mind for something in the future, but not this time’. And that's okay, too. At least you made that connection.

    Stephanie Echeveste  56:41

    Yeah. How do you maintain relationships? Do you have a spreadsheet of people you've contacted for different things or people you want to work with again? Or is it just kind of like when you think of someone you look up who it was and then reach out to them?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  56:55

    It's a mix. I think it's pretty organic. I think sometimes- so, oftentimes what will happen when your piece gets a lot of traffic is then other outlets who see this one sort of more premier outlet as being quite important or a trendsetter will reach out to you through your website. That's, you know, just kind of going through inbound. But if you're trying to get your thing written about, then what's helpful is to look at reporters who have reported on something similar on the outlet that you want to be featured on and then just reach out to them and say, ‘hey, I saw your article on this. I thought it was really great, here's why. I thought you might be interested in writing about my thing, which is similar but different’.

    Stephanie Echeveste  57:36

    Yeah, yeah. Cool. Good advice. What are the best resources that have helped you along the way? This can be anything.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  57:44

    I think a supportive group of friends who believe in you. It's not any one thing, and I'm someone who has struggled with mentorship. You know, I've had mentors who have turned out to be not good mentors, who have tried to take credit for the work that I've done or, you know, it just hasn't worked out in that way. And I think it could be because my work is very multidisciplinary, and it's hard for folks who kind of work a little more traditionally to advise on the questions that I am asking about. So I have just a lot of peer mentorship, and not necessarily artists, in fact. I find that sometimes the most insightful thoughts on problems that I have have come from friends who don't work in the field. Because they just approach life and working and problems in a different way, and I love that diversity of thinking about a certain problem. And I think that's just been my secret weapon throughout this all, being able to talk to a close group of friends about problems that I'm having in my sphere of working.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  58:01

    Are these friends you've made along the way from different periods of your life, or are they friends from high school or college or a specific period?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  59:02

    I actually don't have any friends from high school anymore.

    Stephanie Echeveste  59:05

    I don't really, I have, I think, two.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  59:09

    Yeah, I just grew up in a very conservative area in the south, and we just lead very different lives, and that's okay. They're mostly friends from college, or friends who I've made along the way. It's like when you know, they're your person, you know. And yeah, I think sometimes just talking about what you're struggling with and kind of sharing and being vulnerable with people you trust and people that you can do the same for that sort of dialogue, that give and take can be really beautiful for boosting both your careers.

    Stephanie Echeveste  59:42

    Is there something about what you do that you think has been mythologized or a myth you want to debunk about being an artist who works in very different spaces?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  59:53

    I think, it's not really a myth, but I think it's helpful for artists to explain in detail with partners they work with, their process so that everyone understands just how much you put into it. I think artists are often thought of as you can snap your fingers and it happens, but there's a lot of logistical and strategic thinking that goes into the work we do, and I think it's important as a group, as artists to share all the thinking and all the planning and all the strategic tinkering that we do to create something. And I think the more we share that the more folks understand just how complex and just how process driven and sometimes painstaking our work can be. So, not really a myth I want to debunk about myself but more so just like a note of encouragement for, you know, myself and other artists, to share more about the challenges that we face, whether it's how we work with partners or just how things, how we would like things to be. Honestly, it's sort of like put your vision of what you want to see out there, and when folks don't have a roadmap, they can refer to the one that you provided. I worked on a mural project recently, where I had submitted paint colors that I wanted and the organization that I was working with had agreed to procure the paint and it was great and I was very, very specific. I gave them all the numbers, exact and I was like, ‘I want a matte finish and this is what I want’ and they ended up matching paint by themselves in their own way and completely disregarding my directions and then got me glossy paint. And, you know, sometimes we don't want to raise a fuss about things, but putting your foot down about your artistic vision and making sure that artists like yourself and other artists aren't disrespected in this way is important, even though it's hard and it might create tension, sometimes you're just like, you know, I'll deal with it because I don't want to create a fuss and especially when you're not at home and you travel to do this project, you're sort of alone, and there are all these other factors as well, but just having the courage to put your foot down about what you asked for and what was in the contract, and this is something that's not okay to do, and you have to respect artists and their vision. I just want to encourage people to do that. Because sometimes you'll get partners who are inexperienced, and you know, people don't know what they don't know. So sometimes it's just, you know, little miscommunication. There's some difficulties, but sometimes you work with amazing partners who listen and follow up and it's just a good working experience, but they all can't be awesome.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:02:58

    I think there is a myth among some people or types of organizations or industries even that art is arbitrary. Or it's just a, maybe the artist hasn't thought through certain things, and it's like, obviously, if you're working on a project, you have specifications for a reason. It's not like it could be any color that's like this, there are reasons why, that you might not even ever explain or maybe shouldn't even need to explain. But yeah, I do think that is a myth. Particularly, not with everyone for sure, but with some people in the real estate industry where it's like, we just want it to look this way, and it just becomes what it is, and the artist just does the thing, and it's like there's a way in which the art happens.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:03:42

    Right, and sometimes we need certain things like surfaces to be prepared or xy and z. And those are important for how our stakeholders want it to look and how long our stakeholders want it to stay up. Because if you don't prime a wall, then that's going to come down way sooner or whatever it might be.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:03:59

    Right or if there’s suddenly a lighting fixture in the middle of the wall that you didn’t know about, it has nothing to do with the art, but, yeah, I run into a lot of those kinds of issues where it's having to educate from the get go, like everything in this realm, everything in this universal space will affect the experience.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:04:17

    I mean, that's why what you do is so crucial for projects like this, it's like being an artist yourself, you can better advocate for artists in these contexts, because, yeah, you can expect people to know what they don't know. And they're like, it's gonna be great, and then they suddenly have, you know, all these, this new information that wasn't revealed before. And, you know, as an artist I just learned to expect that to, or, like that's just gonna happen, but it's better when it doesn't.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:04:46

    Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's always stuff that, especially with a construction site, there's always last minute stuff, or

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:04:52

    There's always stuff.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:04:53

    And that flexibility really helps being able to be adaptable. But yeah, the more you know, at the get go, and the earlier that the artist can be involved in the project the much better things will go in the end.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:03

    No, I completely agree. Yeah, the other mural I did, they gave me the wrong dimensions and then I was on the site trying to project the image up and I was like, this is wrong. So then I was changing things in the design.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:19

    Yeah.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:19

    But you know, again, as you said, be adaptable. It's still going to turn out awesome. Just gotta roll with punches sometimes.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:27

    Yeah, is there something-

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:28

    Oh and make sure you get paid. Yeah, make sure they pay you.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:30

    Yeah, that's a common theme I’m hearing. Don’t do free work.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:35

    Yeah, don't do free work.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:36

    Where can our listeners find you online?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:38

    You can find me everywhere @alonglastname. So my website is alonglastname.com, on Instagram, I'm alonglastname, Twitter, everything.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:48

    When did you come up with using alonglastname?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:51

    It was actually quite early on, I was working for a startup which actually is where I met my husband.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:05:55

    Really?

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:05:56

    Yeah, and I had actually, honestly, I wasn't on social media before that, I'm introverted. I just, it was not a thing for me. And I had to come up with a handle and I was like, ‘you know what? My last name is truly too long. So I will just be alonglastname’.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:06:13

    I love it. Thank you so much for this interview and for being on the podcast.

    Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya  1:06:18

    Of course! It was so delightful to do this. I really enjoyed our conversation.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:06:22

    Yeah, I loved talking to you and learning more about your work.

    Stephanie Echeveste  1:06:26

    Thanks for listening to this episode of First Coat. If you liked this podcast, please leave a review. Make sure to subscribe to the First Coat podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Instagram @firstcoatpodcast or @distillcreative. First Coat is a production of my company Distill Creative. Check us out at distillcreative.com.



PODCASTStephanie Echepodcast, public art, mural artists, interviews