Perri Rhoden on Being a Mural Artist, Making Money, and Self Care - Ep 1
ON THIS EPISODE
This week on First Coat we have artist Perri Rhoden. Perri is a Seattle native and has recently taken the leap to being a full time artist. I spoke with Perri about her work on a giant Black Lives Matter mural in Seattle, her transition to being a full time artist, and the importance of self care. You’ll learn about how Perri started painting murals, how she makes money, and what is giving her hope right now. We also talk about capitalism and the Black Lives Matter movement in relationship to art, social media, and a whole lot more.
Read the full transcript here.
This interview was recorded in July 2020.
LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE HERE 👇🏾
LINKS
We are Water mural by Melvin Freeman and Perri Rhoden (the one she was working on when recording this episode!)
See Perri’s C in the Black Lives Matter Mural in the CHAZ/CHOP in Seattle, Washington
Read 2020: The Year of the Rough Draft Christopher Paul Jordan Christopher Paul Jordan
Read Too Heavy a Yoke: Black Women and the Burden of Strength by Chanequa Walker-Barnes
Artists referenced: Pua Age and Mari Shibuya
Check out Therapy for Black Girls
Check out Urban Art Works
Sign up for Perri’s newsletter for updates on her new artwork and prints!
Guest | Perri Rhoden, Artist
Seattle native, Perri Rhoden, has been honing her creative practice as an abstract artist in Seattle for the past 8 years. She has evolved from a traditional figurative painter to her newfound passion as a mixed media artist and emerging muralist. The presence of the female form is still present in her work however the exciting illustrations occurring around, on top, below, and through the female form is what has elevated her perspective and ability as an abstract artist.
Follow Perri on Instagram (@thecurlynugget, #thecurlynugget), and check out her website.
Your Host | Stephanie Echeveste, CEO & Founder of Distill Creative
Stephanie Echeveste is an artist and art consultant based in Brooklyn, NYC.
Follow Stephanie on Instagram (@distillcreative or @stephanie_eche), Twitter (@stephanie_eche), YouTube (Distill Creative), LinkedIn, and check out her art website.
Support First Coat by backing us on our Patreon.
Learn more about Distill Creative’s services for real estate developers.
Are you an artist? Sign up for our Distill Directory and you’ll be considered for art commissions and future projects.
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Stephanie Echeveste 00:02
Welcome to First Coat. Where we explore public realm art, how it's made and why it matters. I'm your host, Stephanie Echeveste, an artist and entrepreneur based in Brooklyn, New York. I run Distill Creative, where I curate and produce site specific art projects for real estate developers. This week on First Coat, we have artist Perri Rhoden. Perri is a Seattle native and has recently taken the leap to being a full time artist. I spoke with Perry about her work on a giant Black Lives Matter mural in Seattle, her transition to being a full time artist and the importance of self care. You'll learn about how Perri started painting murals, how she makes money, and what is giving her hope right now. We also talk about capitalism and the Black Lives Matter movement in relationship to art, social media, and a whole lot more. Here's our conversation.
Stephanie Echeveste 00:47
Hi.
Perri Rhoden 00:48
Hi, Stephanie.
Stephanie Echeveste 00:49
Thanks for doing this podcast interview.
Perri Rhoden 00:52
Of course, I'm excited.
Stephanie Echeveste 00:54
Can you tell us who you are and what you do?
Perri Rhoden 00:56
Of course. My name is Perri Rhoden. I'm a visual artist and muralist. I'm based in Seattle, Washington. I've been creating art for the last eight years. This year I started doing murals. I think anytime you move into a new medium, there's a level of stretching and growth that happens. So I'm really excited, but I've definitely felt more physically tired in the last like, three months than I have all year, but I mean we're in COVID, so yeah.
Stephanie Echeveste 01:31
Right. A weird time for many reasons right now. What's the project you were recently working on?
Perri Rhoden 01:36
So I'm still working on it now actually. The Seattle weather has played an interesting turn with scheduling. Right now I'm working on a mural with mixed media artist-photographer Melvin Freeman. So he has, I think it's like a 200 foot long space in Seattle off 23rd and Massachusetts in the central district. And so it's just a huge blank wall, and he applied for the public art call, I think, almost two years ago to commemorate the central district. And so he has these like three foot giant enamel, maybe porcelain letters that have photographs of historic, historical photographs of black people from the 1900s all the way to present day and so those photographs are kind of a collage into each letter and tell a story. And so my piece of it is doing the mural behind those letters and I'm painting water. So I've been doing that for the last two and a half weeks and today's actually the last, like I have to finish by tonight.
Stephanie Echeveste 01:46
Oh my gosh.
Perri Rhoden 01:53
I know. So, in terms of reflecting on it and all this perfect timing, but definitely once this is over and hopefully the rain stops, I'll go and put my finishing touches. So, yeah.
Stephanie Echeveste 03:14
I didn't even- because you're in Seattle, right? So thinking about how weather affects installation, it's just such a different thing there.
Perri Rhoden 03:23
And you'd think that by July- what's today, July ninth? That we'd be in summer. I mean, we kind of are but I feel like it's every five days, it's rainy, cloudy, and we get small peeks of sun so I think even for Seattle this is a very, very mild summer. So I'm hoping that Seattle really brings it in August because I literally switched out my winter wardrobe for my summer wardrobe. And because we're in this pandemic I'm just looking at all these beautiful dresses and sandals that I'll never be, I'll never be able to wear. So it's, it's bittersweet, but you know we’re- it is limited.
Stephanie Echeveste 04:12
That's exciting that you have a project right now because I know a lot of artists had projects postponed.
Perri Rhoden 04:17
Yeah. I'm so happy, so blessed. I think it's also been really great to engage with the public, also, just like people who are driving by and honking and you know, and then I kind of got into this mode, I was like, oh, all the honks are for me and then there actually was a honk for traffic and I was like, okay, okay. Bring it down. But yeah, it's, it's really been great. It's been an interesting kind of balance of managing both my ongoing projects that, really just me and my studio, with also managing the schedule with executing this mural. So that's been an interesting journey, and I think I'm just having to learn along the way.
Stephanie Echeveste 05:10
How have you started to manage your fine art studio practice with your public art practice?
Perri Rhoden 05:15
So, I think my entrance into doing public art has been interesting. So, this- let's see, fall of last year, I knew that I was going to execute this mural with Norman Freeman around this time. I also won an art call for the Midtown, which is supposed to come out when the building is finished, it should be around this time next year. So in my head, I already knew that I had two public art opportunities and I was like, okay, great, then COVID happened. And I feel there's been this interesting kind of peak with the pandemic and also Black Lives Matter, and because a lot of stores have closed down, they have all of those wooden panels in front of the windows, which has made public art more accessible. And so a lot of artists have gotten opportunities both paid and volunteer to, you know, display their art, and I think that that has been so inspiring and really refreshing to see because I think public art can just be very closed and really hard to get into. So that's kind of one layer to my story, but then the other half of that is with all of these temporary Black Lives Matter murals that I've been doing, it's coming kind of unexpected in a sense where I can't necessarily schedule it. So I've had to find this balance of like, Oh, this is a great opportunity. Do I want to take it? Is it paid? Do I like that establishment? Do they support you know, do they support black folks before the pandemic happened? Are they doing it now? So, in addition to kind of creating boundaries with doing murals that are related to Black Lives Matter, I've also had to, let me just create space to be in my studio for me to just make art that makes me feel good. Because I also feel like a lot of people are patronized, yeah, patronizing, like black artists in a way. It's like, ‘oh, I didn't really think about you before, but you're a black artist and so let me hurry up and get you on this project’. Or ‘let me hurry and get your art on my storefront so that everyone can see that I'm supporting a black artist’, but I think if you really wanted to support an actual black artist’s life and their legacy, you'd be more understanding of their schedule and their boundaries. So in a way, all of that said, I've passed on a lot of opportunities so that I can be in my studio more. And then I've also created space in my schedule, knowing that this mural with Melvin was coming up, of saying like, ‘hey, for the next three weeks, I'm not available, but you can contact me after July 20’. And I even added in extra days, one for in case something goes wrong in case the weather sucks, but then also just time for self care and to turn my phone off and not answer any emails and literally just be. So I think that's a long winded way of saying I've had to create boundaries to say no, and also to create boundaries of just having space for myself and I think then my studio practice will kind of emerge from that.
Stephanie Echeveste 09:00
I really like what you talked about with basically developing criteria for when you take on a project and when you might pass on a project, which obviously might evolve over time. I think that's such a good tip for other artists because, once you start getting opportunities, or whatever the case might be. I think the whole thing around Black Lives Matter and more focus on black artists, I totally agree with you. It's awesome, but it's also like, where were you before? And why is this, why are you now discovering black artists? I want to step back because I think black artists should be able to be the face of this and do whatever they want to do and I want to support that, but I also am scared to even support something that's asking artists for these ridiculous timelines or might have ridiculous expectations when I know that someone who is pursuing art, whether it's as a hobby or as a career, they're just not available the next day. It's just not how it works.
Perri Rhoden 09:58
Yeah, no, I appreciate hearing that, and I feel your frustration and I think that kind of a part of having my criteria as an artist is setting those boundaries for yourself, but also the way that people respond, let you know where they are in their personal development with understanding what true support and allyship looks like. You know, for example, someone asked me to paint shoes for their small company. And I was like, sure, so checked them out, whatever, and I set a timeline boundary. I was like, ‘you know, I can't, I have a lot going on right now, but I can- here, these are the dates where I'd be able to support. How many shoes? Do I have full artistic expression over it?’ Everything was great, and then when I set my, when I followed up the email, I was like, awesome. All this sounds great. Here's my price estimate for these two shoes, crickets. So it’s like- and it's coming from a place of, and I still give them compassion and grace, do your thing, but it's also like, although you want to be able to say, 'oh, hi, we got’, you know, ‘we have these pairs of shoes which we’re donating to this specific charity by a black artist who was involved with the Black Lives Matter mural', all of that sounds great for the headline, for your PR statement, but did you pay the artists for their work and their time? Or did you expect that I was going to do that for free? And so that is also just very telling within itself, and it's like, okay, well, in a way, I hope that you're able to continue to do the project that you want, but I'm also hoping that whichever, whomever, whatever the next black artist is that they speak up and say like, 'No, you're gonna pay me for this work'. Yeah.
Stephanie Echeveste 12:01
I think it's really smart to be extra wary of how someone responds because it is telling, and if they don't have a budget to pay the artist, then that's wrong. You can't expect an artist to do free work.
Perri Rhoden 12:13
Small tidbit, I think a part of that is a lot of folks are reaching out to artists who may have never had a mural before or have never done public art on that scale, or they're asking them to kind of, it's a beautiful ask, but it's kind of more of a reach, like maybe outside of their comfort zone, and the artist is like, ooh, I don't know what to charge for this. And I think that my tip is to charge per square footage. I had someone explain that to me back in March. And it, you know, in terms of pricing your art, there's so many variables that I think that as a visual artist and the idea of charging per square foot, if that's, I would say 7 dollars, 10 dollars, whatever it is just playing around with numbers, and especially if it's a larger company, oh, charge up the ass, get that money. If it's, you know, like a smaller company, you know who they are and you support what they're doing, maybe charge less, maybe don't. Maybe you can kind of, you know, if it's for like a concert venue and a local concert venue, maybe because it's a pandemic, you'll charge a flat rate and then maybe ask for free tickets for four or five shows in like 2022 or something like that, I don't know. But just feeling confident that even though this is a realm that you're not really used to, definitely charge your worth and your time and like food and transportation. Had I known that food and transportation could be part of the budget line, breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Stephanie Echeveste 14:05
That's a really good tip to figure out what your baseline square footage price is taking into account the paints you normally use, how long it normally takes, all of that, and then you can increase it over time, you can adjust based on your client. The other tip that I get from a lot of mural artists is paint a wall anywhere, if you want to do murals, you have to paint a first mural because otherwise you're never going to get a second gig, you have to show you can do the work.
Perri Rhoden 14:28
Yeah, for sure. And I think, also, photographing the work as well. If you're able to secure your first mural, definitely have them cover paint supplies, but if you can have a friend, one who's experienced or not. Find your best selfie friend, you know, maybe not selfie, but your friend who's always taking the best pictures of you at your birthday. Beg them to come and take really great photos of you while you're creating because I think that’s- so like on the storefront side, they're able to advertise you, but then you also need to be able to advertise your work to your network, and put those pictures on your website or put them on your Instagram or whatever. Just I think the work in progress photos for people who specifically aren't artists who can see like, 'oh, wow, that looked like crap and then she turned it into that? Yes, I want her'. I think that's how you get that momentum and you can use that to market your next project.
Stephanie Echeveste 15:38
That's a great tip. Have you been doing video?
Perri Rhoden 15:41
Yes and no. So, for some projects, yes. So the first project that I did was through a nonprofit organization where I was volunteering called Urban Artworks. They work with, I don't want to say youth. They work between like, age 15 to 21. If I was 20 I would not want to be called a youth but within that, right, yeah, young adults, and they work with them and help them get opportunities and exposure and learn kind of more of what life as a muralist, you know, a career can be as a muralist. I just butchered their tagline but whatever. Anyways,
Stephanie Echeveste 16:27
I'll link to them in the show notes.
Perri Rhoden 16:31
So, I worked with my mentee, Pooja H and Mari Shibuya. Mari is the project coordinator for it, and we did a really beautiful mural on the backside of someone's fence at their home. And so that was the first mural that I created period, but also this year. And so we took a lot of videos and pictures of that and it was such a wonderful experience and I think not only for that being my first mural, although I've been a visual artist for eight years, to work on that with my mentee who's just getting into her career as an artist and wanting to dive into mural work as well and kind of having that being both a new experience for the two of us, but also very experienced with both me and Mari with art, it just, it was a beautiful dynamic, so we have lots of videos, pictures. The murals that I've done after that, the one that I'm doing with Melvin, he's a photographer and he's amazing, so I can't wait for those pictures and videos all to come out. I think for some of the murals in between here and there, I was doing one project where I felt this was more like a melting pot of everyone's ideas rather than my idea, myself. So I haven't really been kind of marketing or talking about that one quite as much. So kind of just, it just kind of varies.
Stephanie Echeveste 18:10
One thing that I see other mural artists do is using their own hashtag or having a hashtag for themselves for their work and making it clear how people can tag you because that's how I've seen mural artists also promote themselves, like they can say that they have this many posts on their murals and whatever, I mean, Instagrams a weird world, but I do think it's helpful in that way.
Perri Rhoden 18:31
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, #thecurlynugget. So anytime I post any type of art that I've created on Instagram, it's #thecurlynugget, so I'm trying to build that hashtag, but I think it’s also in a way, it's like a social media, verification of, for me at least, if my hashtag is on it then you know that it was approved by me, in a way. But yeah, I just try to reflect- I use my social media kind of as my blog and then my website as my home base. So, you definitely get a kind of everyday intimate look into my life on my social, but on my website, my website will reflect on a more like portfolio, professional sense to verify all the projects that I've done and what to say about them.
Stephanie Echeveste 19:32
Yeah, I was looking through your website, obviously and I really like how you give more details and also link to any press around a project. Good job with your website.
Perri Rhoden 19:42
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like artists resumes are, don't get me wrong, they're awesome, in terms of, really like on a chronological level of really getting a deep dive into what someone's doing. I don't really feel as if business professionals look at that it's more of within the art community. So, in whatever way that I'm looking to improve my website, but then also just thinking about it from all of these various perspectives, like how can someone get that same sense of, kind of history and information as to what I'm doing. That's what I'm trying to achieve with my website.
Stephanie Echeveste 20:25
How did you come up with the curly nugget?
Perri Rhoden 20:29
Oh, I was in college. And, you know, that was kind of around, I mean, Instagram was around, you know what I mean? I'm 29 so I was in college and I was like, ooh, we're gonna come up with a really fun and witty, you know, I didn't want it to be like my AOL, you know, or my MySpace name, which was, anyway, so the curly nugget I thought about just on a visual and symbolic aspects of who I am. Curly, my hair, I think my personality, a lot of my friends say you never really know where it is that I'm going when I'm talking. I could literally pull some story literally out of my ass and you're like oh, that's how she connected that? So the curly. And then nugget, I think about gold, value, also something that's kind of heavy and of substance but then also, to be honest, like a chicken nugget. Brown, brown, little, mini bite sized. Yeah, so the curly nugget is, it's me and my, me and my essence.
Stephanie Echeveste 21:51
You tag your murals with ‘the curly nugget’. What about your paintings? How do you sign them?
Perri Rhoden 21:57
Yeah, so with my murals, I tag both my name and my social media, which is thecurlynugget. On my fine art pieces, like this is an original behind me, I'll always find my name. So I'm trying to create the balance of the curly nugget being sort of like an alias, kind of like Beyonce and how she has Sasha Fierce but she's also Beyonce. In that sense, where my website is my name Perri Rhoden, all of my fine art prints, fine art work will always have my signature. But my murals and my social media, I'll make sure that I list both and if there has to be one or the other, it will be my name rather than my social. But I actually did hear that a handful of people are creating stencils out of Venmo and their cash app. What's what's that called? The- you know, when you have Venmo, and you can go in and like,
Stephanie Echeveste 23:08
Oh, the QR code, or the...
Perri Rhoden 23:11
Yeah, QR code.
Stephanie Echeveste 23:12
Yeah.
Perri Rhoden 23:12
We'll call it that, for the sake, not saying it's wrong.
Stephanie Echeveste 23:15
Where you can scan it and then find that, yeah.
Perri Rhoden 23:18
Yes. So, some people are taking that and creating a stencil out of it, and then putting that on their mural. So that's phase two of Perri creating in the street. Like, hey, you want to support me? Here's my code, and then my name and my social media and then changing that on my Venmo so that it says, thecurlynugget, Perri Rhoden on both. So I think that's kind of another way to have people that- everyone wants to talk about how they want to support. Okay, boo, here's a way that you can support and also here's my handle so you can get in contact with me, loop to my website and my social media.
Stephanie Echeveste 24:04
Right, it's like another way in. And also it puts cash first. Yeah, that's a really interesting idea. I hate it when people just post someone's work and they don't tag the artist or say who took the photo because it's like two people you should be crediting. Right?
Perri Rhoden 24:18
And I get even more irritated, Stephanie, when, when whomever is reposting the photo, where they're aware of the fact that an artist took it, they're aware of the fact that an artist should receive credit, and then they say, ‘tag the artist’. That is so, oh, that is so infuriating for me, because it's like why are you now putting work on other people to do something that you should be doing since you're the one that- and I feel like there's, there's a way where maybe, maybe I'm more annoyed with the demand in the language rather than it being phrased in like, ‘Hey, y'all, I love this photo, do you know who it is?’ You know what I mean? A way where,
Stephanie Echeveste 25:03
Like ‘I can't find a handle on the mural. Does anyone know who the artist is’ but not like tag it, you know, just ‘tag it yourself because I'm too lazy to look’.
Perri Rhoden 25:12
Yeah.
Stephanie Echeveste 25:13
I reverse Google image search all the time because I'm trying to figure out who made this thing.
Perri Rhoden 25:17
And I think that's the other piece too, just as visual artists and creatives, I've learned through other people not that I had to learn this for myself, but of whatever it is that I'm putting out on social media making sure that my name is somehow ingrained in the piece so it can't be photoshopped out, or if I am posting a picture of something, right, if I'm posting a final picture of a mixed media canvas piece that I made, making sure that it's either tilted at an angle, or if I'm in it too, so then someone can't crop out my name or crop me out of it and then try to plagiarize it as their own. Or try to make prints off of it, or just share it and then no one knows that it's, that it's mine. So I'm trying to continue to be as social media savvy as I can, so that I can try to prevent as many issues down the road.
Stephanie Echeveste 26:20
Right. And then there's always just putting things on the internet. You can't really control what happens to it, which is what's kind of terrifying about it, but also, you have to. You have to share your work. That’s how people find you. What's your earliest memory of creating something?
Perri Rhoden 26:37
I was thinking about that this week. Back in the 90s, the Seattle Public School District, I feel like they did a really great job of prioritizing art, and so elementary school, my favorite classes were always something art related. And it wasn't just here's a pen and paper, it was like transferring, watercolor onto paper or tie dyeing or papier-mâché and or if it was like watercolor it was like, I don't know, draw elements of who you are, I don't know. I literally was always coming home with art projects. And so I don't have one specific ‘that was the earliest time I created’ but, whenever I brought something home, my mom would put it on display in our home, similar to how some kids will write an essay, and once it's graded, their parent will put it on the refrigerator, that was the equivalent for me. So I think in terms of, although I started creating art in my early 20’s, my mom really fostered an environment which was supportive of not only her celebrating the art that I created, but me also feeling very proud and sincere in my parents supporting me doing creative things.
Stephanie Echeveste 28:06
That's awesome.
Perri Rhoden 28:07
Yeah, I know not everyone has that.
Stephanie Echeveste 28:10
Yeah, you had a good art curriculum and also validation, which I think is so important at a young age. Why do you think you went back into it when you were in your 20’s?
Perri Rhoden 28:20
Being raised in Seattle, Washington, I was like, how can I get- can I cuss? How the fuck can I get out of Seattle? How can I get as far away from this place as possible? So I applied to a handful of schools and ultimately went to Howard University in DC. Stark contrast to being around- just everyone says that Seattle’s so diverse blah, blah, blah. It's not integrated. It's, it's passively racist here. And black culture and anything that's not white culture is not celebrated or kind of, supported, in a way, and so I just wanted to be around- I was like, let me be around just black people and see how that is. Also, I was like- DC is such an amazing city, I can get to New York, I can go to Philly, I just was like, I just want to absorb this. So, when I went in my freshman year, I was undecided, and then I decided to be a Spanish major because someone told me that I can make a lot of money as a translator, ‘oh, you can travel, do all this great stuff’ I was like, awesome. To this day, I don't really know a lick of Spanish and so, someone told me they're like, when you don't know what to do just try different things. And so for one semester, I literally just took classes that sounded interesting to me. Figure painting was one of those classes. I still have the first piece that I ever made, and it's beautiful, but I'll always keep it but looking at where I'm at now, I'm so happy that I was supported in that space. I found myself in that semester, staying up to like 3 a.m., creating, painting, and not really focusing on my other classes. And it dawned on me, I was like, what if I did this, you know, I spoke to my parents, they were in support. And so my, I think it was my sophomore year, halfway through my sophomore year, I switched my major. So I spent two and a half years at Howard studying studio art, drawing, figure painting, ceramics, a little bit of digital art and I probably would have leaned more into digital art however, I would have had to stay an additional like two years to get the minor in digital art, andI was like, I don't want to be on this campus for six years total. So then after I graduated, I stayed in DC for a bit, it was really hard getting into the art scene while also trying to, you know pay my bills, as beautiful as DC is at the time, I found it really hard trying to, it was hard to network on my days off, which were random and, you know, far between. And then just a lot of, a lot of, a lot of life happened in that short period of time. And so in 2015, I'm back to Seattle, and then I've been focusing on my practice more intensely ever since. And so really great, January of this year, I decided to pursue my art full time.
Stephanie Echeveste 31:51
Wow. Congratulations.
Perri Rhoden 31:55
Thank you. Thank you. And so it's, it's been an interesting journey with COVID, because right when I made that decision the world stopped. But I am really, really fortunate and happy that all of the work- and I think that's the piece of it to where this isn't always said, but for artists to be able to actually, lean into these moments, you know, with like, the murals and Black Lives Matter, or however we're being reached out to, it's because we've laid this foundation that's already existed, and now we're able to receive or receive these opportunities, or we have a website because we already have had one. You know what I mean, all of that groundwork has been in place. And so yeah, it's been a really great- it's kind of weird, celebrating my successes in the midst of all of the devastation that's happening but still creating space for myself to be happy, and that’s I think the balance that I’m trying to create right now.
Stephanie Echeveste 33:03
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's really weird to be okay when so many people are really not okay. I think in capitalism, we're all fucked. It's just, it's a weird thing to be like, well, I'm making money or I'm able to pay my rent or whatever, when, when you just know so many people are just not and have lost their homes and are dying, particularly black and brown people. I personally deal with that too, in the sense where it's, it's basically forced me to have to be more upfront about who I am and let people know, I'm Chicana, I'm of Mexican descent. It's not like I worked hard and you should too because that's not, that's not what's going on right, like it's the system is just against black and brown people, there's no amount of meritocracy that would fix that. And that's where it gets kind of weird because I don't want to promote my story, like ‘I did it so you can too!’ because it's, for me, I think it's a lot of luck, but I did work, you know, and you did, like you said, put the foundations and it's hard to hold those things together without making it seem like you're better than other people or somehow you worked harder, but also knowing that you did work really hard, and that's why you're getting opportunities, also.
Perri Rhoden 34:19
I feel like the more that the people who are more conscious, aware of their positionality aware of other people, it's almost as if language kind of, it's a challenge trying to talk about it, in terms of being aware, being sensitive, knowing your place and things, it's like fuck, almost sometimes I don't even know what to say. And I think that yeah, I completely understand what you mean and capitalism is- it is really interesting, and I think that specifically capitalism in the US, if our country focused more on health and actually taking care of the people who are here, rather than on finances and capitalism, I think that, in my opinion, we wouldn't really be in the situation that we are with all these COVID cases, specifically talking about that. The numbers, I had to stop listening and looking them up at one point because it's just crazy, and I think it's because we've, you know, restarted the economy too soon. And everyone's- and that's the part that's most frustrating too, because I understand the balance of we have to make money, right and a lot of these small businesses or a lot of these black and brown businesses and- we have to have income in order to feed ourselves. But I also just get really frustrated when I see folks who are partying, and who are in pools and who are operating as if- especially when they're black and brown, when I see black people, as if it was 2018 living their lives, it's even more frustrating because I'm like this system is designed against us. And I think it's painfully clear, especially when you look at the rates of the people who are dying from it the most, but the best I can do is wear my mask, make my art and just try to stay hopeful. I think that's kind of the piece that's keeping me grounded and optimistic.
Stephanie Echeveste 36:50
So how are you making money right now? And has that changed? Have you shifted your income revenue streams based on COVID? Or how are you adjusting?
Perri Rhoden 37:00
Yeah, so, how am I making money right now? I'm making money by, well, through the murals that I'm doing. I still have commissions from different clients that I'm working on. And then through my website, I have my online shop, one that I physically manage myself, and then I have a third party website. I don't love the third party website, but I'm using that more as an opportunity to kind of get a kind of a sample of what folks are interested in buying. So then I can take that data and then find a way to buy those wholesale and manage them myself so that more of the money is going in my pocket rather than splitting the money with this third party site. And so that's kind of been my strategy over the last I'd say like five months, whatever, of making sure that I'm managing my own inventory, doing murals, having commissions, and then kind of creating the systems in place so that I can partner with local black creatives who are making masks, where it's like, okay, I have these prints, you can make the mask, let's collaborate here. Or, like one thing that I want to make are puzzles. I feel like puzzles have really helped me in the last six months. So just something that's not TV, something that I can do by myself, with my family and just zone out, listen to music. So I'm trying to find companies where I can put my artwork on a puzzle, and just some things that I actually like. So those are, those are the ways that I'm making money right now.
Stephanie Echeveste 39:00
That's a lot of different types of things. So I think it's something that I feel like a lot of people don't talk about regarding being an artist, like a full time artist, you're basically creating a business that has multiple types of little businesses within it. You have fine art commissions, the mural commissions, the public art stuff, where you're applying to grants and things like the project you're working on right now you probably applied last year or beforehand, right. So that timeline, and then product development. I mean, it's a lot of different things that you're doing which is, which is awesome, and I think a good way to diversify your income stream so that you aren't fully dependent on in-person things or virtual things or physical things or whatever.
Perri Rhoden 39:40
For sure.
Stephanie Echeveste 39:41
We are in such a weird world where production of something might not happen because they can't get the shipment in or all the in-person things might stop suddenly.
Perri Rhoden 39:50
So in terms of what requires the most effort, and then work or income that requires very little effort, speaking at public events, although it's nerve racking, you know, the public event it's here, it's there, it's over in two hours, you usually know what you're going to talk about, it's free press, and then you just kind of move on from it. I, I'm so sad that those opportunities, those panel style events. I mean, I think that they probably are continuing to happen virtually, but I definitely miss those because those are also great in terms of exposure and meeting folks, but then also just a really quick way to make $300 by just talking.
Stephanie Echeveste 40:35
That's a great tip, and hopefully people will, I guess, start paying, because panels are still happening. I just, they're just online and it's just a different, it's a different thing. I don't, I'm not really excited about going to a virtual panel.
Perri Rhoden 40:49
I'm gonna be in one in a couple weeks. So we'll see how that goes. But this is my first podcast interview. So yeah, I think it's, it's kind of what I'm doing with the third party website, it's like, okay, well, let's just dip our toes in and see what happens, you know, do you like it? How does it feel? And so I think just as, as the creative, artistic nonprofit field, you know, we're all going to have to go virtual, really just leaning in and kind of seeing what feels good is the best way to go.
Stephanie Echeveste 41:26
Yeah, definitely. We're all experimenting right now, in one way or another. Why did you pick the C in the Black Lives Matter mural?
Perri Rhoden 41:33
I get this question a lot, and I wish I had a cooler answer, but all of the artists involved, you're in a group text and you know talking about like, oh, we're going to start painting this time on Thursday, and then I think someone was like ‘so how are we going to choose the letters?’ And then, everyone, it was almost like I missed the moment, everyone was like, ‘oh, I want the B, I want the M, I want the L, I want the A because this reminds me of my mom’ and this, like how am I going to challenge you on a letter when you've added this backstory to it so everyone was just like- I was literally just scrolling through, arrived two minutes too late and I was like, you know what I'll take the C. No one wants it, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna just do my thing on my own. Let's see. And I also like it because it's more kind of, it's curvy and there is no other, it's the only C in Black Lives Matter, so I was like, you know what, I’m on this. So that's how The Curly Nugget got the C.
Stephanie Echeveste 42:43
It looks great. I loved seeing that project. I think it was more representative of the movement and being diverse and having different artists do different letters instead of just painting the same, it just felt more meaningful. How was it installing? Can you talk a little bit about the process?
Perri Rhoden 43:00
Yeah, so Takiyah Ward and Joey Nix- Tekiyah Ward is a multi disciplinary artist who's also from Seattle. She reached out to me, asked if I wanted to be a part of it. I was like, ‘yes, let's do it’. Joey I don't, I didn't know him before this, I'm still getting to know him, but he kind of helps with more of the technical side of like measuring out the letters, making sure they were large enough and all the logistics that was, that came in place with it. And so I think once all of the artists were together in one thread, they were like, ‘hey, the letters are good to go. Y'all can come’. Once again, I think it rained and so they're like, you know, ‘we have a small window on Thursday of good sun before the rain kicks in. Just come through, we have materials, you can bring some if you'd like, if you buy materials let me know, we have donations so we can reimburse you’. And this, keep in mind was at the CHOP/CHAZ zone, so, and there were protests happening the week before so in terms of really just checking in with myself, in terms of safety, in terms of COVID, in terms of my black body being in this space. I do live at my family home, thinking about going to this space and potentially getting in contact with COVID and bringing that home, so that was an issue. Also, nowhere on this earth is safe for me right now, and I feel safest at home, but even Brianna Taylor was at home and she was murdered. So, I had to kind of mentally prepare myself for am I going to pass up on this opportunity because of fear, or am I going to pray for safety and just get in and get out. And so that was more of my thought process of going. And when I arrived, there were a ton of people, so in terms of the inner germaphobe, I was like ‘ya’ll are too close’. They had all the letters actually blocked off, and so there was this kind of layer of protection from the public, where I was literally not necessarily surrounded by all the artists because we were in a line, but it felt like this kind of dome of safety where it was like, okay, I don't know, anyone else but I know, no one else in the chalk, but I know that all 15 of these artists, some of them that I met that day, but at least were aware of each other and there was solidarity in that. And so my thought process was, you know, I can bang this out in like three or four hours, put your headphones on, because with public art, people always want to talk to you, which is great, but I also just was like I, the only way I'm going to be able to zoom in and really, do my thing on this letter is if I pretend that I'm not around all these people. And I didn't quite know what I was going to do on my way there, but I just was thinking about, you know, what's very me, what’s reflective of my art right now? And that's color, it's line, it's creating implied kind of textures, almost like a textile design, and so I was like, let me just, let me see what- because that’s the other thing too, not knowing what colors are going to be there. You know, with most public art opportunities, first you have to, not have to, but most of them when it's for a business they want to know what you're going to create before you do, and then they are also kind of more tricky about colors. Here it was literally as if I was a blank canvas, what am I going to do but I don't know the materials. So when I got there, I just kind of pulled the colors, similar as I do in my studio, colors that make me feel good right now that I’m just naturally drawn to, and then I decided to actually, this painting here is called SpottieOttieDopaLicious. I'd move the camera but I don’t want it to fall.
Stephanie Echeveste 47:33
We'll link to it later if it's on your website.
Perri Rhoden 47:36
But in it, I kind of created these long lines and have broken up the canvas into these little compartments and then created kind of like mini stories within each one almost like a kaleidoscope of sorts, but within the small lines. And so I wanted to do a version of that, but one that would be able to kind of be seen from far away as well as up close and I think that that's something that I'm trying to, as a new muralist, find that balance of wanting to apply my studio practice of like, this is canvas I want the smallest detail, really getting in and making those lines crisp, but, and creating something that looks amazing up close, but with public art, making sure that yes, up close, it still looks great, but also thinking about it from various vantage points and making sure that the design looks just as successful from far away and not knowing- so the drone shots not knowing how, how high they were going to be in the air, of just trying to create something that felt good and that also aesthetically looks pleasing. So that's kind of how I came up with the concept and sort of my thought process while in the moment, and the chalk was an interesting experience because I've been there twice or three times now. The first time was when I went to install the C, and it felt kind of like a festival in a way.
Stephanie Echeveste 49:15
Like a music festival?
Perri Rhoden 49:17
Yeah, but really uncomfortable in a sense. So I just, I was very anxious and kind of eerie, because it wasn't a space that I had been to before. The second time that I went to the CHOP was maybe that following like five days later, where it was still, which they changed from CAZ or Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, they changed it to CHOP, Capitol Hill Occupied Protest, and so that's its own thing. But when I was there on Monday, it still was CHOP, it was daytime. It felt more like a protest in a way but it still, it just was a very interesting, it was just a really interesting place because there were people who were walking around but, but there also is this expectation of the CHOP of it being this space of learning, of allyship and but then you also have people who are coming and wanting to visit it and so the interaction that I experienced on Monday following was an older white man came through with the American flag and had a make america great again red cap on and was silently making loops around the chop and I saw him, at first I was like you know y'all let's still have this meeting, let’s still get our footage because we wanted to, in addition to- the amount of followers that I got from that Thursday to Monday, I think I gained maybe almost 6,000 and the reach of people who, who started to follow me, and who were kind of wanting to know more about, my stance and my voice and why I did it. That's why we all decided to meet on Monday to take recordings and kind of really share our voices as to why this matters to us. So that's why we were there. And, yeah, so then, the second loop that this man made, not, I won't say a physical fight, but a verbal altercation took place with someone else, and he was a black guy and he was telling the white guy with the flag to leave and it wasn't- and that's the part which was so frustrating, then everyone decided to ally for him and help get this man to leave and so finally- and but then there were multiple people who were trying to jump in and were yelling at each other and it just was, imagine watching a fight erupt and you're, you're literally in like 20 feet of it happening. And it's kind of this moment of both shock, but also you're trying to watch what happens, but then it's also like, ooh, are we safe? And after it was over, the black guy was really frustrated and was just kind of yelling at the crowd and was saying, ‘why does it always take a black person to say something is wrong in order for you all to stand up and be allies? Why are you here?’ And the crowd was majority white, I should say. He was like, ‘why does it take a black person to tell you something's wrong in order for you to activate your allyship? You should have told him to leave before I even said anything’. And I think that that's the piece where it's so frustrating because I don't think that, specifically in the chop, I think the chop is really a small petri dish for what's happening in America. Yes, the protests happened, which is great. You know, a lot of people were there, people were arrested, they were beaten. There's a young black man who was killed there, and I don't even think that's hit the news, or that's not being circulated. And so it's like, why do black people always have to be the ones to do the work? And I get that maybe we have to tell you how we feel or what's wrong, but it's like okay, now that we've said that, now that this space is created, now that you know that you need to be an ally, why do I have to tell you in the individual instances of when you need to tune into that, I think, and that's the, that's the part where I just was like, I don't want to be here at the CHOP anymore. I'm gonna go home, you can kind of do a virtual meeting, love y'all, solidarity. And then the last time that I went to the chop was after it was vandalized this past Sunday.
Stephanie Echeveste 54:26
The mural?
Perri Rhoden 54:27
Mm hmm. Yes.
Stephanie Echeveste 54:28
What happened?
Perri Rhoden 54:31
This past Sunday, a local black artist, muralist, community member, he decided upon himself that he was going to, in the art of trying to preserve it, steal all of our acrylic based paint and artwork and an oil based clear coating without reaching out to us. We're trying to figure out is this worth preserving? How much effort is it going to take into preserving it? Who's going to pay for it? Because it's not going to be me. It's so damaged.
Stephanie Echeveste 55:07
But oil coating is what damaged it. So you used acrylic paint? Everyone used just like acrylic house paint or something?
Perri Rhoden 55:16
Yeah. And spray paint.
Stephanie Echeveste 55:18
And spray paint, okay.
Perri Rhoden 55:20
And so the frustrating part is that our preservation plan was to come in, powerwash, clean, retouch with the paint that we used and already have, and also, it's, each art, each artist created with their own, you know, artistic touch and that, I could not replicate the work that someone else did. Like I would never want to retouch someone else's letter because I wouldn't be able to do it in their light and with justice. In addition to us feeling it, the issue is that, it's been like maybe two weeks since the day that we created it to when he sealed it in the oil paint, so all of the bird shit, dust, tire tracks, gum, all of that was sealed in with the oil based sealant and that's why we're contemplating whether or not it's even worth trying to retouch at this point, and if we should just, it would, it just would be so much easier to start a new project.
Stephanie Echeveste 56:31
Can you even remove the sealing now?
Perri Rhoden 56:34
No, we would have to power wash the fuck out of it or sand it down. Yeah, we're trying to figure it out. We have a couple different meetings. And so Joey was more, and mind you I came in just for my individual piece of it, but in terms of, it was primed, I think power washed and primed before we got there. And so, acrylic paint was the suggested medium for us to use for it.
Stephanie Echeveste 57:07
It was planned to basically be temporary as long as can last.
Perri Rhoden 57:12
In my opinion, it came about in a temporary mural installation kind of way. Folks donated money but they also donated paint, so, the argument which has come up in conversation with other folks is like, ‘well, why didn't you all use, higher grades of paint’ or, and all of that. And I believe we used Behr paint, which is available at Home Depot, which actually, Behr Marquee is actually a pretty solid grade of paint to use for murals, in my opinion, but I think it also is just really kind of counterproductive and disrespectful or dismissive to say, ‘you all should have’, not saying that you have said this, but for argument sake that we didn't use the highest grade of paint when we're in a pandemic, it's also art that's supposed to be for Black Lives Matter, and going back to the fact that we already had our own preservation plan in place to retouch with the materials that we used, and to make sure that it was going to last longer, and the city was also going to support, had it been left alone, we would have been able to take care of it ourselves. My frustration is that the individual who did it knew how to reach out to us but chose not to. And so I feel like the level of damage that's done, I almost feel like it's kind of unrepairable.
Stephanie Echeveste 58:44
Something that they talk about in placemaking a lot is lighter, quicker, cheaper. Instead of spending a lot of time and money, hiring a bunch of designers to design a new plaza and do all this stuff, get the permits, all of that, let's just do a pop up something to see how it goes. And I really believe in that for placemaking, but it comes with these caveats. Like, at some point, you will have to figure out how to make something more permanent, and same with public art. When there's a movement you can't control how the work is done, you know, you can't, you don't know. It's not that you're not thinking about the longevity of something, it's that you're just, it's a movement, it's just, things happen. And so it's ridiculous to think ‘why didn't you think this through beforehand’, I think what’s so interesting, because public art, I think a lot and why I don't want to only talk about public art because I think of public art, like institutional art, right? Like this organization puts you through a grant process. Usually, it's certain people get those grants. Usually they're known and they've networked and there's all this, I think a lot of bad stuff that goes on in who gets those opportunities, but public realm art is sometimes more democratic because especially with Black Lives Matter right now, it seems like more businesses are open to just hiring different people and being more conscious of it, which is, instead of putting them through this whole process, like applying what you were a part of was basically a guerilla style art project. As a collective, you took over the space, and I really believe in that as especially part of the movement, but then it's like who owns the space? And who is allowed to say what goes on in the space? And if it's another black local artist, do they have more- you know, what I mean? It becomes like this weird hierarchy thing of who is more allowed to have a say about something? Obviously, the people who did the work should have had the say in the work.
Perri Rhoden 1:00:35
Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:00:36
I’m sorry that happened.
Perri Rhoden 1:00:38
Me too, and I think the most frustrating part is that in the world of artists, right, I didn't even have to explain why acrylic and oil don't mix to you. But yeah, to the general public, and I think also the way that some of these news articles are- like the headlines, I used the word ‘vandalized’ probably 15 times in that interview, they chose to use the word ‘preserve’ over my word which was ‘vandalized’. Had they used the word ‘vandalized’ in the headline, it would have leaned more in favor of the artists, and so I think that sometimes the media really doesn't care, and they are using the story, and so that's a learning point for me, too where it's like the media will tweak the information that they have for the agenda that they want to support. So, on all of our social media pages and on the website that we're going to launch soon, is that we're all making sure that we're using our platforms and our voices to really express solidarity with Black Lives Matter, and to make sure that we're not perpetuating this kind of energy of bickering with this person. You know what I mean? Like, it's not about the art, the art is symbolic of the movement and what's taking place. And that's what I mean where, you know, all of these different organizations and folks are interested in preserving the art and it's like, where, where is that level of importance for the fact that black you know, for, for change and for making sure that black people are not being, you know, hunted by the police and I use hunted specifically because I believe that's what I see. And it also speaks to kind of this underlying note of glorifying the work that black people do and what we do for like, glorifying our culture and our, the products that we make and capitalizing off of our talents. And it's like, in order for me to make art, I have to exist, and so how about we make sure that I can exist. So it's, let's make sure that I can exist because I'm human and because I'm a citizen and because I grieve and I have the same fucking body that you do. We have the same organs, you know what I mean? And so, if you want to monetize off of the shit that I make, fine, not necessarily fine, but more of care about me as a person and then we can get into this capitalistic society that we live in, and I think that that is, that's the piece of it that I'm feeling right now, where it's like, do y'all even, does the world even care? Because I think actions, and that's what I mean by CHOP being kind of a petri dish that really shows what's happening in America, and I think that that is just a beautiful example of, of what's happening in this nation and the way that we talk about it and the actions that we're making, you know, after that has happened, it's all very telling.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:04:12
Definitely. I've seen this in a lot of situations across, I mean, across the world regarding art that black people are making right now or that other people are making about black people, which is a whole nother issue I see going on, also. It's like, why can't you just preserve black lives, and then you'll get more artwork, and you can preserve that too, and that's great, but the baseline of humanity is missing often. And to your point, where were these organizations before and just sustaining black artists in Seattle, right, to be able to do work in general. We forget too that, no one's gonna step up, no one, like the white person in the room is just not going to notice the thing for, I don't know, I don't understand why, it's so obvious.
Perri Rhoden 1:05:05
Yeah, so then, it then makes me think, Stephanie, it's like, okay, well, since you're, like my phrase that like ‘explaining stupid’, I really feel like that's just my 2020 phrase, ‘I can't explain stupid’. So then it's like, okay, well, since you're not going to get the heart of the matter, do I need to dangle my art in front of you and literally say, ‘in order for you to get my art, you got to give a fuck about me’, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't, now having to be kind of tactical of white complacency, and I think that that may be phase two of just trying to make change, and I think that if that's what it comes to then, that's fine. Let's be strategic. Let's figure out how to work with what we have rather than trying to explain stupid to someone who just, two plus two is four. Our lives matter. You should care. You should actually care, not just say that you care because other people are around. So I think we're just, we're just going to have to pivot and figure out a new approach.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:06:25
Is there anything that you've been reading, any books or podcasts you've been reading or listening to that you think that has been really inspiring?
Perri Rhoden 1:06:31
I follow this page called Therapy For Black Girls on Instagram, and they have every Thursday, one of, the lady who hosts it, she is on Instagram Live and she'll drop like three tips or things for folks to focus on for the week, and so I've been listening to that Thursday mornings. I’m actually starting a new book called- so I haven't started it yet, but I'm starting a book club with my sister- Too Heavy A Yoke.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:07:05
That’s such a good idea.
Perri Rhoden 1:07:06
Book clubs? Oh, yeah!
Stephanie Echeveste 1:07:07
With your sister specifically.
Perri Rhoden 1:07:10
Yeah, it's Chanequa Walker-Barnes. It's Black Women and the Burden of Strength. And I think that that book’s going to just help me feel a little bit more seen and understood. And although I don't really want to have a virtual therapist, I'm thinking about starting, I really want therapy in person, personally, but I'm thinking about starting that. So on the Therapy for Black Girls website, they have a list of therapists all over the US. So that's what they talked about today. So that's a resource I'm going to check in with later tonight when I finish the water mural, so I'm super excited.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:07:52
Those are great resources. Thank you. We'll link to them in the show notes for everyone.
Perri Rhoden 1:07:55
That'd be awesome.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:07:56
Is there anything else you want to share?
Perri Rhoden 1:07:58
For the creatives and visual artists who are out there, do whatever it is that your soul is calling you to do and don't feel, I think sometimes specifically on social media, we can feel as if we have to commit to a certain timeframe in order to feel validated in starting something. Like, oh, I'm gonna do a doodle a day for all of August or, you know what I mean? It's like, no, just dismantle that. Create some art today. Could be a doodle, it could be posting pictures of some flowers, or it could be you dancing, with no one around in your backyard, be naked, you know, whatever it is, just free, free yourself and free your creativity for you and regardless of anyone else's benefit. Restore yourself. I'm all about self care, which kind of leads to my second thing which is, I think that whatever boundaries that you can create, to love on yourself, that's what helps me feel whole. In my way, it's like giving myself a hug. So the self care that I love to do, before COVID was going to the Korean Day Spa. I loved it. Like usually the week before my menstrual cycle starts, I'll just go, I don’t want to be bothered by anybody, I’ll bring a book, I'll just, you know, just, I miss it so much. And so I'm having to try to recreate those experiences here at home by taking baths, by telling my family ‘hey, I'm just probably not going to talk for the next six hours and I'll be in the living room’. Or facials like I did a facial today you know, whatever, pedicure, wear a mask, be safe, tip well. If you, if you do support, you know if you do go out into the beauty salons, take care of yourself, take care of them, and tipping well means over 20% in my book, but whateve. And I think the last thing I would say is, I think that I read an article earlier today and it was really encouraging. It was in The Seattle Medium by Christopher Paul Jordan and in it he was talking about how 2020 is the year of the rough draft. So like, whatever it is that you, whatever ideas you have, take it from being in a notebook to the next step and see if you like it, but also just feel really secure in not having to have that super polished, like, ‘oh, this is all the way super packaged and well thought out and I want to have all these amazing pictures’ like no, no, I feel like 2020 is the year of do it yourself. Just, just do it. And I think that level of kind of rawness and unfinished kind of quality to it, I think that is more of the authentic, soulful art that I think we're all needing to see. We’re needing to see celebrities without their makeup, without the filters, you know. COVID, being in COVID was really beautiful in seeing folks, seeing their actual nails grow underneath all the acrylics, seeing all the fake eyelashes fall off, seeing men and people with their beards growing and looking like, I literally told my cousin that he looked like, was it Tom Hanks in Castaway? I told him, I was like ‘I love you but you look like Castaway’ and because he's young, I sent him the photo and he laughed at himself. You know, I think, I think it's in that sense of just make it, put it out there, make it for yourself, and then just feel good in it being a rough draft, just moving forward with that, because I think that, I'm hoping that 2021 and 2022 can be the sort of the beginning of whatever underground work that we're doing right now. That's what I hope and that's the way that I'm looking at it. So, make art, self care, and don't get caught up in it having to look or be packaged in a certain way, just whatever your idea is just implement it in its rough draft stage of it just being raw and honest and feel good in that.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:12:46
Yeah, thank you, and where can we find you online?
Perri Rhoden 1:12:49
Oh, yeah, so my website is perrirhoden.com, my Instagram is @thecurlynugget. And those are my two, those are the two. I can't handle, I've tried doing Facebook, too, but it's, it’s too much. Maybe if I had an assistant or something like that, Facebook will be popping in like 2021 for me, but for now Instagram and then my website. On my website, I list places where you can find pictures of my work, murals that I've done around the city, I update my portfolio on there, and then my, I call it my Perri shop. That's where I will post or that's where my, yeah, I guess, well, I'll post things that I've made in my studio if that's like a, like I'm learning how to sew right now. Because I incorporate, I guess I haven’t talked about that, that's okay. I incorporate fabric, glitter, acrylic paint, watercolor, colored pencil all on canvas, and so if I have smaller pieces, they'll be in there and then if I have any prints, so like the Black Lives Matter mural, the letter C, I have about 40 prints of just those letters. And so I've kind of waited to finish this mural, but also see kind of what happens in these upcoming conversations, and then I'll post those to my website. So that's where you can find how to support me, where to get information, and then follow me on social media with @thecurlynugget.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:14:20
Great! Well, thank you so much.
Perri Rhoden 1:14:22
Thank you so much for this interview, Stephanie.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:14:24
Good luck finishing your install. I'm excited to see the final piece.
Perri Rhoden 1:14:27
Thank you! Me too! I hope you have a great day, Stephanie.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:14:30
Thank you. Bye.
Stephanie Echeveste 1:14:33
Thanks for listening to this episode of First Coat. If you liked this podcast, please leave a review. Make sure to subscribe to the First Coat podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And follow us on Instagram @firstcoatpodcast or @distillcreative. First Coat is a production of my company Distill Creative. Check us out at distillcreative.com